Special sword for ID and comments

[Madsen]

Can anyone tell me about the shape of this sword like history, use and rarity? I think its in a very good condition, but are they easy to find better?

Thanks!

[ericlaude]

Hello,
Your sword is an Algerian Berber Flissa.

[Iain]

As Eric said, it is a flissa or flyssa, sword of the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco.

Your example seems nice, although you should clean the rust. The large ones are generally considered more attractive and the quality of the decorative engraving and inlay is also a way to judge them by. It is hard to see from your photos very much detail about this.

A little searching on the forum for flissa or flyssa will give you a lot of information about them. Some of the members have done quite a bit of research into the type.

All the best,

Iain

[ariel]

My understanding is that flyssas were used virtually exclusively for slashing, which will go along quite well with the comments of the contemporaries about absent stabbing technique in arab and indian swordplays.
Indeed, the point is weak, and the absent guard would allow the hand to slip off with stabbing. However..... Any evidence of stabbing anyway?

[Madsen]

Thank you for your replies! I just needed something to start my reasearch and I have that now!

[Iain]

Happy to help Madsen. I have always liked flyssa, they are an odd and intriguing sword type and the big ones are not all that common to find. Congratulations again on a nice piece.

[Emanuel]

Hello, lovely Flyssa!!

There's lots on the forum on these swords, my favourite.

Ariel, I have a number of large flyssas and I don't find the point particularly weak. I wouldn't try to stab through any kind of armour or thick padded cloth, but I don't think it would have any problem piercing lightly covered flesh. I'll try it against a chunk of pork some time.

Iain, a quick question to you and the rest of the forum: I've seen a number of dealers and websites note "the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco."
Could anyone point to where this (misunderstanding I think) first popped up?

Morocco is west of Algeria. Kabylia is a region in the north-east corner of Algeria. Until the French conquest there were practically no links between the two on account of the Ottoman domination of the area. I think there was a misunderstanding at some point between "Kabyle" and "Berber". The majority of Moroccans and Kabyles are Berber people (as were the Tuareg for that matter), but Kabylians have nothing to do with Morocco, as far as I've been able to find to date, and the flyssa was not produced or used in Morocco.

What is interesting though, is that at some point at the very end of the 19th century and start of the 20th, the smaller flyssa daggers produced in Kabylia were fused with elements of the Moroccan nimcha, producing the "wedding nimcha" and its variants. I think this happened in Algeria first and that by the middle of the 20th century or later this moved to Morocco, where they were simplified. The wooden fittings were no longer carved, and while the earlier flyssa blades were forged, the "wedding nimcha" blade is a very thin piece cut from sheet metal.

Best regards to all in this new year!

Emanuel

- Madsen, please drop me a line if you ever feel like parting with your flissa

[Iain]

Hi Emanuel,

Long time since I've seen you post, welcome back!

The Morocco thing... I quickly had a glance at Wikipedia, so that's likely where the error stems from, although it doesn't seem to appear on the main Kabyle people article now... So I'm not really sure but I'm glad to be corrected!

Just to illustrate Emanuel's point, here's a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kabyle-map.jpg

Best,

Iain

[Jim McDougall]

Emanuel, I think the connection presuming links between the Iflissen tribal component of the Berbers of Kabylia, actually in NE Algeria and Morocco may stem from misstatements in Stone for one instance. He inadvertantly identified the flyssa as Moroccan, when these are distinctly an Algerian form attributed to the Kabyles. Apparantly these regions in thier religion follow Sunni Islam but with the Malekite rite which is primarily centered in Morocco. Perhaps somehow this religious and cultural connection, along with the fact that the broader Maghrebi designation included both Algeria and Morocco led to the misperception.

The flyssa itself is a perplexing weapon and its origins, both timewise and from where both the subject of many years of debate. Personally I favor the idea that these distinct swords evolved from Turkish yataghan forms and while examples typically are from mid 19th century, may have existed up to a hundred years earlier.

One of the only focused studies on these is :
"Sabre Kabyles Etude des Flissa, du Musee de ''Homme"
Camille LaCoste-Dujardin,
'Journal de la Societe des Africanistes' XXVIII, 1958

The author observes the refitting of yataghan blades in Algiers and Oran which were mounted with Kabyle type scabbards. The acquisition of a sword for young Kabyle men was a sort of 'rite of passage', and while the familiar 'flyssa' was of course typically seen, the Ottoman yataghan was also much admired and sought after.
There are remarkable similarities of course between various straight backed, deep bellied yataghans and the flissa. The needle type point that is also typical recalls those of Circassian and Tatar sabres, with these groups profoundly represented among Ottoman forces.

I am simply adding this detail for source material for those interested in the 'flyssa' and would point out that much of the material compiled on these has been tremendously augmented by the work you have done and contributed in the many discussions we've had on them here.


All the best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Thanks Jim !

Trust McDougall to clear things up

Warm regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

You bet Emanuel, and thanks for saying that Actually Iain would have been able to respond to this quandry more concisely as his study of the tribal relationships throughout the Sahara has been profound, but I jumped in when I saw your name come up.
Havent seen you here that much lately so glad to see you!!

All the best,
Jim

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

You bet Emanuel, and thanks for saying that Actually Iain would have been able to respond to this quandry more concisely as his study of the tribal relationships throughout the Sahara has been profound, but I jumped in when I saw your name come up.
Havent seen you here that much lately so glad to see you!!

All the best,
Jim

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but to be honest I'm pretty hazy on any anything north of the Tuareg as evidenced by my previous lazy gaff regarding Morocco and the Kabyles.

The Maliki school is pretty interesting in Sunni Islam though. Not to be confused with Malekite Christians, in Islam it refers to the rite started by Malik ibn Anas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maliki

Going back to the topic of the flyssa and potential relations with other weapons in the region. I think part of the Moroccan confusion may have been because of a (perceived) similar culture among the Shilha of the Atlas mountains. Stone may have simply not realized the distinctions between the different Berber groups in the Atlas mountains.

Actually I'd be interested to see a Shilha sword for comparison. I don't suppose anyone has one or has even seen one?

Cheers,

Iain

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Iain, a quick question to you and the rest of the forum: I've seen a number of dealers and websites note "the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco."
Could anyone point to where this (misunderstanding I think) first popped up?

Hi Emanuel
sorry to have completely over pass that important question,
I noticed several times, here or there, the confusion about the BerberS
(they are several) population in "Great Maghreb"
we are not facing different tribes, but really different population groups,
who have in comnun, the language and alphabet (tamazigh), and
the fact to have been landowner for the country before the Arabic invasions
but, each group have singularities very special, i.e. ;

- Kabyles have a "flissa" but Tuaregs have a "Katouba"
- Kabyles are sedentary mountain-people, and Tuaregs are nomades from deep Sahara,
more than 2000 km between them ...
- Mozabites, as far I know, never have a specific weapons, they are "traders",
if they are trading almost everything, as principle, they are against the weapons for themselves ...

I may continue for long to list the differences between each group,
to give you an opportunity of clarify this imbroglio,
I extracted from "wikipedia" 2 documents, one it's in English, 2nd in French, so sorry
hoping thereby, it will start to be more clearer for you all,
I spent 6 years in these parts, and this subject become familiar to me,
at the beggining has been ... an ink-pot ... for me also



à +

Dom

ps/ I discovered this interesting subject, because I was ready to present my last input ... a "long flissa"

[M ELEY]

I'm wondering if some of the confusion, besides Stone, lies with the Barbary Corsairs. This loose conglomeration was made up of Moroccan Berbers (thus the Barbary term), Algerians and Ottoman Turks. Again, I know the corsairs were all thrown together even though they were distinct groups, but many think of them as one big group-

[Rick]

I wonder if one can correlate the various types of vessels from the area (and period) with their ethnic occupants or home port .

Or was it 'Chowder' as you say .

[Emanuel]

Thank you Dom!

A year ago I had posted some closer maps of the Iflissen villages and their location in the Maghreb: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=140312

I had not realized, however, that Berberophone populations were so isolated. This might be due to the inhospitable nature of the country though. I'll overlay this data with the known population settlements to compare.

All the best!
Emanuel

[Dom]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I'm wondering if some of the confusion, besides Stone, lies with the Barbary Corsairs. This loose conglomeration was made up of Moroccan Berbers (thus the Barbary term), Algerians and Ottoman Turks. Again, I know the corsairs were all thrown together even though they were distinct groups, but many think of them as one big group-

Hi Eley
to try to clarify a little bit ... about "barbarians" (don't mix up with rugby team )
The countries of northern Africa that lie along the Mediterranean Sea comprise the Barbary Coast are;
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt.
Maps from 17th century are recorded them as well, see attached map
- Year of Origin: 1603
- Title: Barbaria Africana, Et Biledvlgerid.
Barbariam olim Phoenices incohiere, er alu qui ex Asia et Aegypto....
- Language: Latin
- Publish Origin: Cologne

The name "Barbary Coast" comes from the "Berber" who are the people of the region,
the name became associated with pirates of the 16th through 19th centuries.

The term "Berber" is a variation of the Latin original word "Barbarian",
it's not a reference to a person, who is uncivilized
the Romans applied it to tribes or nations which had not received the Greek or Roman education,
even if they once had, their own developed civilization

other points who could do the difference,
- the Kabyle population is mainly mountaineers, and not seamen
- even in our days, without to be a majority, remains some Christians,
never been converted to Islam, due to their remote locations on mountains
- the mountains altitude in "High Kabylia" are an average from 1000 to 2000 meters,
their highest villages at around 800/900 meters
watch pic's from "Emanuel" post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=140312

à +

Dom

[Emanuel]

Very interesting map Dom!

"Biledvlgerid" would be "Biled Ulgerid" or "le bled Algérien", the Algerian hinterland. I know Algiers itself dates from the 10th century, but it's interesting to see an Algerian appellation in European maps of the 1600s.

Emanuel