Sudanese kaskara - Arabic translation request

[colin henshaw]

Hi

Could someone kindly assist in translating the Arabic on this kaskara. Its on both sides of the blade, but proved tricky to photograph. Hope it can be made out OK. I've added a couple of detail shots for those forumites who like kaskaras.

Thanks in advance....

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Colin,

I'll try to decipher this later tonight or tommorow, but the pictures could be better.

Just a random observation, but the script is not the usual found in Sudanese item.. I think this blade is pretty old.

[Iain]

Thanks for posting Colin, looks like a nice Solingen blade you have. I see you've got the orb and lion, no fly mark? Otherwise seems to confirm to the basic Kull pattern, but looks very early.

Very nice sword!

Cheers,

Iain

[Lew]

Here are the other two pics from the duplicate thread.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for sharing the native applied lion and cross and orb. It would be great to know more on the Islamic script added, which seems atypical on these post Mahdiyya kaskara. Hopefully Stephen might observe.

[Iain]

Looking again I'd have to say I agree Jim, certainly locally applied marks. Still wonder why the fly is missing... Odd. I still would say the blade has a good chance to be European, don't normally see a ricasso on a native blade.

Also hope Stephen can chime in here, he's seen far more of these swords than most of us!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iain

Looking again I'd have to say I agree Jim, certainly locally applied marks. Still wonder why the fly is missing... Odd. I still would say the blade has a good chance to be European, don't normally see a ricasso on a native blade.

Also hope Stephen can chime in here, he's seen far more of these swords than most of us!

Well observed Iain! That is an excellent point of reference in examining these blades as the native armourers were most capable of forging sound blades which almost mirrored the Solingen exports. I always wish we could discover more on the nature of the products which were made explicitely for these markets. From what I have understood from the great work Ed produced on Kasalla, the relatively small cadre of makers did have some degree of variation in thier application of these interpretative marks. It does seem the use of the lion on one side and cross and orb on the other were a fairly common combination. The 'Kull' marking seems to have occurred somewhat separately, but cant recall offhand details.
Where's Ed!!!?????

All the best,
Jim

[AJ1356]

The writing on this is beautiful, and done masterfully. Some one took long, painfull hours to inscibe them on the blade.

[Michael Blalock]

It is beautiful writing. It must have been some sort of reverse or negative of the typical acid etching you see on the typical kaskara.

[Edster]

Colin,

Great sword!!! My knowledge is limited, but may add another ingredient to the stew. My guess is it isn't from Kassala based mainly on the handle wrap. The blade looks thick in the photograph. Hasn't been sharpened in years. Probably old. Grip it with the blade pointing up and snap your wrist. If the blade vibrates for a few seconds, it may be made from lorry spring stock. Likewise, does it bend / deflect maybe 15 degrees or more? Some of the modern Kassala blades could almost bend double for someone who was skilled at the demonstration.

The calligraphy is very stylistic. Not the style of a suq al haddad worker, maybe a silver smith. No doubt the translation may put into a context. Is it engraved or more likely etched? Modern (1986 is the limit of my personal experience with the sword smiths.) marks are often just scratches into the blade or made with a crude punch.

The lion is stylistically sophisticated, and may be the calligrapher's mark rather than that of the blade maker. No opinion on the orb and cross. Line width is more narrow that the calligraphy and that may have meaning. Is it the same depth?

I'll be eager to learn more about this outstanding item.

Regards,
Ed

[Edster]

Colin,

Another thought on your sword. The photo that Lew posted of the cross-guard. Could it be cast? The surface looks a little grainy, the ""blade catcher" looks more integral to the cross-guard than a forge welded piece, and the flats and edges look too sharp to be blacksmith work, unless of extraordinary skill. Its probably just the way the light shines on it. I've never seen a cast cross-guard on a kaskara. Are you aware of any?

Also, the grip wrap looks fairly recent and in the Nile Valley style. Likely a modernation of a high end traditional presentation sword.

Regards,
Ed

[Dom]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Could someone kindly assist in translating the Arabic on this kaskara.

Hi Colin
unfortunately, the text written with the aphabet Arabic, should be in Sudanese dialect
unreadable, for an Arabic speaker of Arabic classic language,
you must found a Sudanese able to read his dialectal language
despite this, it has been determined, that it was a poem,
the translation is roughly impossible excepted some words related to religious invocations, as well as
"Rasul Allah" either "God's Prophet" ... "Allah" either "God"
absolutely sorry

any way, I think my "Brother Lotfi", has not been more fortunate in his attempt of translation

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Edster

Colin,

Another thought on your sword. The photo that Lew posted of the cross-guard. Could it be cast? The surface looks a little grainy, the ""blade catcher" looks more integral to the cross-guard than a forge welded piece, and the flats and edges look too sharp to be blacksmith work, unless of extraordinary skill. Its probably just the way the light shines on it. I've never seen a cast cross-guard on a kaskara. Are you aware of any?

Also, the grip wrap looks fairly recent and in the Nile Valley style. Likely a modernation of a high end traditional presentation sword.

Regards,
Ed

Ed, great observations, and I agree I cant think of any cast kaskara guards, however I have seen a good number with brass guards. Have you picked up any detail on the use of brass as opposed to the iron guards?

Also, it seems when we talked you mentioned certain smiths using certain stamps or marks and I wondered about this unusual form which is of course more like a lion..I was thinking perhaps like the Lion of Judah seen in Abyssinian blades as possible influence.

Its good to have you posting on these kaskara!!

All best regards,
Jim

[colin henshaw]

Hi Dom

Thanks anyway for your efforts on translation. Any Sudanese in the forum ?

Glad the kaskara has produced so much interest - its a thick, heavy old blade, with beautiful script. Might be native made ? but difficult to say 100% (refer my previous posts on this subject). The engravings of the lion, orb and script may have been by the same hand. The crossguard probably forged.

Regards.

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Colin
unfortunately, the text written with the aphabet Arabic, should be in Sudanese dialect
unreadable, for an Arabic speaker of Arabic classic language,
you must found a Sudanese able to read his dialectal language
despite this, it has been determined, that it was a poem,
the translation is roughly impossible excepted some words related to religious invocations, as well as
"Rasul Allah" either "God's Prophet" ... "Allah" either "God"
absolutely sorry

any way, I think my "Brother Lotfi", has not been more fortunate in his attempt of translation

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Hello guys,

Sorry its taking me a while to translate this. I am busy with my mid terms so studying and other stuff are taking my time. Promise to translate what I can once am free :-)

[A.alnakkas]

I think its a poem by doing a superficial reading.

It also contains a reference to Imam Ali (La fata ella Ali Alkaraar, wa la saif ela thul Fiqar.) The interesting part about this reference is that it contains Alkaraar, which is a title to Imam Ali that means: the Slayer. I never seen it on a blade :-)

Edit: interesting find is that the Imam Ali reference has a grammatical mistake, replacing La with Ma (Ma fata ella Ali.. wa ma saif ela thul fiqar).. its strange how the scribe will make such a mistake while writing a poem.. hmm

More later

[stephen wood]

...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

[A.alnakkas]

No idea, maybe. The poem itself mention lion often. Just the problem with such caligraphy is that one shouldnt rush to translate it on first sight.

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

So I finished mid terms, think I did alright :-)

I managed to read the poem and understand the words, but this poem is using a very good classical arabic, I wont try to translate it emmediately as I may get the meaning completely wrong. For now, I am trying to find the poem on the internet to try to understand it more.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

These stylized lions are taken from certain mid 19th century Solingen markings and as perceived tribally were seen as representing a brave warrior, much as various markings meanings were adopted and transcribed into thier symbolism. These markings also seen in Saharan takouba.

[Dom]

Hi
without prejudice, just an idea that comes as well
the lion is associated with "Assad Allah of Isphahan" famous swordsmith
"Assad Allah" (the Lion of God)
and signed ... with a "lion" brand that was taken, copied, and even abused,
the stamp was so ... too much famous
...why not been exported and used on Sudan,
as has been done in ... India

never forget that,
in the Arabic the word "Prestige", it's translated by ... "Prestige"
it's so important in society ... trust me

à +

Dom

[Iain]

My understanding was also that the lion rampant was adapted from European blades in the context of kaskara and takouba, as it is a mark found on both 19th century trade blades and much older blades as well - see Briggs, Morel etc. And then absorbed into marks regarded locally has holding meaning and power like Jim mentioned.

However it could easily have taken on multiple meanings once introduced including the intriguing idea Dom mentioned.

Any luck with the translation A.alnakkas? I'm quite curious about the poem as well as the errors of the scribe you mentioned.

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Iain,

I translated alot of it. But cant find the poem anywhere. Most people (me included) hesitate to translate classic arabic. Will see what I can do today.

[A.alnakkas]

Ok, I'll write those in Arabic for now:

First 3 pictures:

من ماشا(مشى) الدهر ضيما و أسجرت (ف أسحرت) به ألاونات (الاونلت؟) جوار منه لم يضم

man masha (or could be msha) Aldahr dhayman wa Asjarat (could be fa As"harat) behe alawenat (could be alawnalat but that makes no sense to me) Jewar menh lam yadhum.

In english, it would be something like this : Who accompanies eternity in sadness (It could also be Who walks the path of eternity in sadness) and is set ablaze (or it could be mesmerised) by late occurances - what is near him (this could be wrong) wont ever be oppressed/saddened.

[A.alnakkas]

I need a clearer 4th picture but here are the rest:

5th:

إستلمت الندا من خير مستلم

Estalamat alnada min khair mustalimu

And you will recieve the call (or it could be: And you recieved the dew/call) from the best of recievers (this part is classical arabic at work, the meaning is not clear so do not take this as a true translation)


ما فتى إلا علي و ما سيف إلا ذو الفقار

Ma fata ella Ali wa la saif ella Dhul Fiqar (the sentence is grammatically incorrect unles someone can prove it to be correct

No warrior except Ali and no sword except Dhul Fiqar.

6th/7th picture:

وقاية الله عنت عن عفة مضامن الدروع وعن عال خمن الأرطم (؟) سنة 1245

Weqayah Allah anat an efat madhamen alDuru' wa an 'al mn Alartam sannah (written vertically) 1245

This sentence seems to be non-arabic or accented or uses words that are uncommon. It seems to be an evocation to protect the wearer of the armor (no idea why armor and not weapon) and it contains a date of 1245 hijri ;-)

8th and 9th pictures are unclear. Please post clearer ones.

Also, do not take this as a "translation" as I could have missed the meaning of these poems.

[Iain]

I think you are probably selling your translation a bit short. What you posted makes sense to me and I really appreciate your efforts.

The date in particular is interesting and certainly seems to fit with the sword overall.

It's interesting to find a piece with inscriptions that are not religious verses or in the pretty much unreadable Thuluth style.

Colin, congratulations once again on this very fine and I think important piece.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Iain

I think you are probably selling your translation a bit short. What you posted makes sense to me and I really appreciate your efforts.

The date in particular is interesting and certainly seems to fit with the sword overall.

It's interesting to find a piece with inscriptions that are not religious verses or in the pretty much unreadable Thuluth style.

Colin, congratulations once again on this very fine and I think important piece.

Hey Iain,

Thanks. The main issue is not about it "making sense" but rather what it truely means. I cannot know that at the moment as I cannot find the poem anywhere.

While I could have got the meaning correctly, I still want to be sure :P

[Iain]

Hi Lofty,

Yup, understand fully. I don't know enough about Arabic literature, but is there a chance this is an original composition perhaps made for the owner of the sword?

Cheers,

Iain

[Dom]

Salam Aleikum Lotfi ... maborouk ... half mabrouk
honestly, I really am impressed by your abilities in paleography

Taghrid, confessed to me that, this translation was beyond her capacities,
full of words that was unknown, even if she is graduated from university
but not in Arab history, or Arabic ancient literature, she is a sociologist ...

again, congratulations for that translation ... it's an achievement
I'm able to appreciate the job, even if I'm not the translator
but as I'm a good paleographer in French language, I understand what that mean as job
same appreciation
for what is doing here, our other good friend "Zifir" who is a paleographer in Turkish language

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Lofty,

Yup, understand fully. I don't know enough about Arabic literature, but is there a chance this is an original composition perhaps made for the owner of the sword?

Cheers,

Iain

Probably, no definite way of knowing though :-(