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#1 |
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While enjoying a brewed elixir, I was rather stupidly perusing ebay and ended up with this. This sort of behaviour is out of character, the ebay part is anyway. It does have some damage but not unexceptable for the money or too my surprise its age. The tip is fine and purposely fashioned. It handles beautifully what practitioners would call a fast weapon. I like the ivory grip but I do not really know a lot about it. Can I join the dhamented, please
![]() Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2005 at 05:20 PM. |
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#2 |
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Marks I have just found, has anybody seen the same ones?
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#3 |
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Hi Tim
That is a rather nice dha you picked up ![]() Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 10th October 2005 at 06:05 PM. |
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#4 |
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Hi Tim,
I think I will get drunk too tonight ![]() That brewed elixer gave you a sharp view on the pleasures of live ![]() |
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#5 |
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Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!
![]() I've never seen that blade marking before, so I can't help you there. As for the origin, I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research. Age is a tough one, particularly from photos. This thing looks pretty old, but in nice condition. I'd say late 19th/early 20th century. It may be older. The blade is nice, and that broad central fuller is not rare on Thai swords. The blade tip is interesting, and it looks like the fuller extends all the way to the end? Any chance you could post a close-up of that feature? Best, Andrew |
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#6 |
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I hope these help. The seller said it was from Malay. The pictures show where the sword ends inside the scabbard, just short of the peg in the scabbard, pegs have been discussed before. Thanks for the help, I was very worried I had bought a pig and a poke while waiting for it to arrive. Tim
Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2005 at 07:50 PM. |
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#7 |
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Curiouser and curiouser.
![]() Other than claiming a Malay origin, did the seller provide any provenance? I'm unaware of any sword of this form originating from a Malay culture, but it's possible this traveled down through the peninsula on its way to you. I think this blade has been shortened, but I'm far from certain. I've got a few dha with squared or convex tips that have a wide fuller extending through the tip. However, your scabbard is a bit long for the blade, and I think I detect a slight upcurve to the bottom edge of the fuller which might have indicated the beginning of fuller "resolution" if the blade were originally longer. I think Mark may have a sword with a very similar blade. The peg might have been placed to repair the scabbard (do I see a crack in the wood?). I've never seen a dha of this length and a chape cap with such a peg. When I have seen them, they usually appear on knife-sized weapons, or occasionally on newer, lower quality swords. This is not one of those. ![]() |
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#8 |
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I have a knife sized dha with a peg in the scabbard. I can see no obvious signs of alteration, the other side of the scabbard is fine. There are no file marks and a uniform patina on the blade tip, the balance of the weapon could not be better. What was Malay does border Siam. The blade on this is quite thin and tempered so as to have some flexability and much finer than my latter dha. Tim
Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2005 at 08:51 PM. |
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#9 |
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Fair enough, Tim. As I said, I'm far from certain this blade has been shortened, and you have the advantage of having it in your hand.
![]() I, too, favor the balance of these long-handled swords. It makes for a very "quick" feeling blade, as that much handle will usually move the center of balance back very close to the handle/blade junction. |
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#10 |
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I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ?
The only one I own that is similar is this one ![]() Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them. |
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#11 |
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Hi JT. I still favor Thai for Tim's example. Probably Ratankosin, according to Mark. A similar one appears as #4 in the second photo in this post about an Oldman Catalog:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...97&postcount=2 |
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#12 |
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How did I miss this one? It is very nice, from what I can see.
I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away ![]() ![]() I have seen the peg in a number of scabbards, so I think that it is a normal feature, but I don't think that I have seen it together with a chape. I think Andrew is right about age. Never seen the mark, either. It looks sort of like a flower with a stem ... or maybe a latanka? Are there two marks or one? |
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#13 |
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I take it I am in then, you will let me know the password or secret knock
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#14 | |
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![]() Quote:
Notice I hedged my bets on the pommel? ![]() Have we seen many Burman swords with handles of this length? I know this is not a "cast in stone" feature, but lotus-bud pommels do appear on Thai swords as well, and if the handle was shorter and three-sectioned like your example, you'd have complete agreement from me. Perhaps an example of cross-polination? The struck marks at the forte are interesting. I suspect a smith's mark (no great guess). Andrew |
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#15 |
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This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim
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#16 |
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I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms.
Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier. ![]() Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though). |
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#17 | |
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#18 |
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Yeah, that is exactly the type I meant. The handles are a lot shorter, though, actually.
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#19 |
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I'm willing to reconsider the possibility that Tim's sword is Laotian. The hatchet tip reminds me of a more subtle version of those seen on Montagnard swords, and the long handle is often seen on Laos swords.
I'm short on time, but I'll try to post some examples later. |
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#20 |
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I may be going off on a tangent but if you put aside the detail and decoration and focus on just form, the proportions shown here are a very good match. The knife at the top has the peg scabbard but the middle dha obviously the large version, has a scabbard bound with fine cord without a peg unless there is a peg under the binding. Viewed this way although chalk and cheese in terms of finery there are similarities. Tim
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#21 |
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I have just seen another dha with a peg and chape scabbard, I will not be able to show the pictures for a couple of hours. Tim
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#22 |
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Hi Tim,
I'm not inclined to place too much significance on the peg at this time. Those other weapons you show are of recent manufacture, and typical of the type. Your ivory-handled sword is much older, and much finer. It is, frankly, a special sword. ![]() I'm certainly not suggesting the peg has no significance at all, but it fades into the background for me at this point when considering the other characteristics. Andrew |
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#23 |
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Gosh thank you, the devil looks after his own
![]() ![]() Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th October 2005 at 07:58 PM. |
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#24 |
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In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies
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#25 | |
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#26 | |
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Stay tuned. ![]() |
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#27 | |
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I forgot the add the icing on the cake -- according to Leach, "Political Systems of Highland Burma," Kachin and Shan tribes inhabit the same regions (Kachin up in the mountains, and Shan down in the upland river valleys), and individuals can become sort of indentured to members of the other tribe and end up adopting the identy of that tribe. So an ethnic Kachin will call himself "Shan" if he/she is indentured to a Shan and living among the Shan, and vice versa!
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#28 |
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Thank you fellows, not too scholarly in English English means coffee table book
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#29 | |
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![]() What do you mean by "catalogue type books"? There's a bibliography thread around here somewhere that I've been meaning to update and make a "Sticky" for some time. However, the references for dha are sparse, and we tend to get excited about a single photo or passing reference in much larger works. ![]() Incidentally. this dearth of information is exactly what fomented my obsession with dha. |
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#30 |
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the best single source for dha pictures that I know of in general publication is Punjabhan, Naengnoi, "Silverware in Thailand," ISBN 9748869563. There are some pictures from it on this thread, courtesy of dha investigator extraordinaire Dan Wilke.
And not to beat my own drum, but the largest single collection of dha photos on the web is on my web site The Dha Research Index (I thinK I have more than are in Artzi's archives at Oriental-Arms). |
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