An interesting chalice for coments

fernando · 3rd March 2010, 07:52 PM

This chalice, made by French 'Argentier' Christofle, was recently acquired by a friend of mine.
I know this is not a weapon, but this forum policy is rather tolerant and there certainly are members here with lots of general knowledge, being rather possible that i could enlightened towards the meanning of this piece decoration.
We can see soldiers, prisioners, ships, horses, drums, trompets and the like.
My question is: are these efects the fruit of the decorator's imagination, or could they be allegoric to some historical military event or period?
Are the soldiers and prisioners recognized as being from a determined race?
Any coments will be so much welcome.
Fernando

.

fernando · 3rd March 2010, 08:00 PM

Oh sorry, wrong forum

.
Can some of the moderators move it to the European section?
Much obliged
Fernando

fernando · 3rd March 2010, 08:49 PM

Thanks a lot.

A Senefelder · 4th March 2010, 04:45 AM

Fernando, the prisoners in the second pic appear to be Turks. The armour shown seems to depict 16th century styles possibly from several regional preferences, the prevelance of maille standards or bishops miters leading me to believe that German lanscknects are amongst the depicted. There are numerous half armours and most of the helmet depicted are of various infantry types of the 16th century, casquetel burgeonetts, a number of 16th century variations of the chapel de fer familly including what seems to be some cabacettes. I'm guessing based on the gear that the seen depicted is in the 1540-1560's range ( the maille standards are my only limiting factor to time, the rest of the equipment would be just as at home in the 1570-1600 range ). There is depicted some sort of naval landing in the 6th and 11th pics down. I'm thinking that the whole depicts some sort of 16th century military conquest in the 1540s to 1560's, given the naval operation depicted and that the prisoners are seemingly Turks, probably by one of the Italian city states in the 16th century. While there are fairly standard trophied arms motifs around the base the lions heads flanked with what might be matching letters or emblems might give a clue as to who or what this was made for.

Its neater than all get out and quite a find! I can tell from the pics that theres quite a bit of detail I can't make out that may give more clues as to whats being depicted and when ( given that allegorical events were often depicted with the participants wearing the modern equipment of the day, this cannot be ruled out as a possible source of the event portrayed. ).

Marc · 4th March 2010, 12:14 PM

Beyond the analysis laid out by A Senefelder, with which I have to say that I agree, if I had to bet anything on this, my money would go to the tapestries series "The conquest of Tunis".
In 1535, when campaigning against the pirate kingdom of Tunis, held by Barbarossa and the Turks, Charles V took with him the Dutch artist Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. From his experiences in the successful campaign he produced a series of detailed sketches that were afterwards used as a model for weaving (in the 1550's, I think) the monumental tapestries that constituted a chronicle of the event. The sketches (14, I think, of which 12 survived until today) can be seen today on display on the walls of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, in Vienna, where they fill a whole wing (they are huge). Many of the actual tapestries are also preserved nowadays in various Royal Spanish Collections.
The style of the images depicted in the chalice is quite familiar, and remembers me strongly of these series. The fact that I recently had to privilege of going to Vienna, appreciate them first-hand and becoming enthralled by their beauty and detail, may be conditioning my perception, though

These tapestries were already well-known and well-admired in their time and have been since then, so it wouldn't be strange to find figures extracted from them in other pieces of decorative art.

celtan · 4th March 2010, 05:06 PM

Hola Nando,

To me, they look like Spanish 15-16th C. soldiers. The wreath around the cups on the chalice's base seem like an stylized 92, taking into consideration both sides.

In 1492 the Spanish finally defeated the last arab stronghold in the peninsula, expelling them. Spain also embarked in the first voyage that brought the European discovery of America.

Spanish soldiers / ships being readied / Muslims / 92

Its a possibility...

Regarding race, I guess that they should all be considered Europeans (formerly "caucasians"), since Moors were mostly of this race, specially in in 15-16th C.'s Palestine, Turkey and North Africa. Now-a-days, their racial composition is like that of us Christians, quite eclectic.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

This chalice, made by French 'Argentier' Christofle, was recently acquired by a friend of mine.
I know this is not a weapon, but this forum policy is rather tolerant and there certainly are members here with lots of general knowledge, being rather possible that i could enlightened towards the meanning of this piece decoration.
We can see soldiers, prisioners, ships, horses, drums, trompets and the like.
My question is: are these efects the fruit of the decorator's imagination, or could they be allegoric to some historical military event or period?
Are the soldiers and prisioners recognized as being from a determined race?
Any coments will be so much welcome.
Fernando

.

Norman McCormick · 4th March 2010, 08:32 PM

Hi Fernando,
Scenes from the Reconquista was certainly my first thought but as has been said it could be almost anything portrayed in allegory e.g. Biblical, fable etc. Not much help I'm afraid.

My Regards,
Norman.
P.S. A very nice and interesting piece regardless.

fernando · 5th March 2010, 01:35 PM

Gentlemen,
I have shown this thread to the friend who owns the chalice.
He was astonished with such prompt cooperation and visible knowledge.
I will have to digest all the vast considerations and come back here to render my humble conclusion based on all that was said.
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

fernando · 7th March 2010, 02:04 PM

So,
After all thougts kindly posted, i have tried to make out a coherent panorama, focusing differently in the scenes, but i came to no conclusion. I wouldn't rule out a collage of random events put up by the decorator ... whether based on concrete events or not.
The efects shown on the cup's base don't seem contemporaneous to the ones shown in the body ... i mean, to me

. The lion motive misplaced, the drum looking a bit more modern than the other items (?). Also the wreath style looks later, although i can not discern any numbers ... Manolo

.
I also first thought the prisioners were Turks, Snefelder, same time as the soldiers could be Portuguese. After all, Portuguese main enemies when the discoveries period started were the Turks... even in the India coast.
But then, we see no muskets or crossbows, much used at the time.
Also the horses would be a forced situation, in such atempted context (?).
The halberds style look a bit stylized or 'too modern', but that could be the artist's perspective.
A different approach would be whatever nationaly soldiers having assaulted and sacked a determined place and prepare to embark with the loot ... prisioners included.
But sincerly, i think is best give up my brilliant deductions and resume to the sum of the opinnions given here by you fellows.
Thanks again.
Fernando

Matchlock · 30th March 2010, 05:35 AM

Hola Nando,

After almost all has been said, especially by our learned member A. Senefelder, all that's left to me is to state that in my opinion this chalice clearly reflects the late Italian/early German Renaissance taste of ca. 1530-40. Nevertheless, I am afraid that it actually is a Historismus production of the second half of the 19th century.
Now what does make me think so? It's both the characterization of the faces and the warriors' attitude.

Just my opinion though but as you know the late Gothic and early Renaissance styles are my favorites. It still might originate from the 1530's-40's which would make it a real sensation and price it somewhere in between 10,000 to 15,000 euro. Guess we should be able to see the actual item to make sure.

Highly interesting and important find anyway!

Best,
Michael

fernando · 1st April 2010, 02:58 PM

Thanks a lot for your observations, Michael.
It sure is an 'Historimus' production; i took the pictures myself.
As i said, is signed by Christofle, a manufacturer of fine silver flatware and home accessories based in France since 1830.
And the price was accordingly to that.
And as you say, it must be no older than close from 1900.
Fernando

3rd March 2010, 07:52 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An interesting chalice for coments This chalice, made by French 'Argentier' Christofle, was recently acquired by a friend of mine. I know this is not a weapon, but this forum policy is rather tolerant and there certainly are members here with lots of general knowledge, being rather possible that i could enlightened towards the meanning of this piece decoration. We can see soldiers, prisioners, ships, horses, drums, trompets and the like. My question is: are these efects the fruit of the decorator's imagination, or could they be allegoric to some historical military event or period? Are the soldiers and prisioners recognized as being from a determined race? Any coments will be so much welcome. Fernando . Attached Images

3rd March 2010, 08:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh sorry, wrong forum . Can some of the moderators move it to the European section? Much obliged Fernando

3rd March 2010, 08:49 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot.

4th March 2010, 04:45 AM	#4
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Fernando, the prisoners in the second pic appear to be Turks. The armour shown seems to depict 16th century styles possibly from several regional preferences, the prevelance of maille standards or bishops miters leading me to believe that German lanscknects are amongst the depicted. There are numerous half armours and most of the helmet depicted are of various infantry types of the 16th century, casquetel burgeonetts, a number of 16th century variations of the chapel de fer familly including what seems to be some cabacettes. I'm guessing based on the gear that the seen depicted is in the 1540-1560's range ( the maille standards are my only limiting factor to time, the rest of the equipment would be just as at home in the 1570-1600 range ). There is depicted some sort of naval landing in the 6th and 11th pics down. I'm thinking that the whole depicts some sort of 16th century military conquest in the 1540s to 1560's, given the naval operation depicted and that the prisoners are seemingly Turks, probably by one of the Italian city states in the 16th century. While there are fairly standard trophied arms motifs around the base the lions heads flanked with what might be matching letters or emblems might give a clue as to who or what this was made for. Its neater than all get out and quite a find! I can tell from the pics that theres quite a bit of detail I can't make out that may give more clues as to whats being depicted and when ( given that allegorical events were often depicted with the participants wearing the modern equipment of the day, this cannot be ruled out as a possible source of the event portrayed. ).

4th March 2010, 12:14 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Beyond the analysis laid out by A Senefelder, with which I have to say that I agree, if I had to bet anything on this, my money would go to the tapestries series "The conquest of Tunis". In 1535, when campaigning against the pirate kingdom of Tunis, held by Barbarossa and the Turks, Charles V took with him the Dutch artist Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. From his experiences in the successful campaign he produced a series of detailed sketches that were afterwards used as a model for weaving (in the 1550's, I think) the monumental tapestries that constituted a chronicle of the event. The sketches (14, I think, of which 12 survived until today) can be seen today on display on the walls of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, in Vienna, where they fill a whole wing (they are huge). Many of the actual tapestries are also preserved nowadays in various Royal Spanish Collections. The style of the images depicted in the chalice is quite familiar, and remembers me strongly of these series. The fact that I recently had to privilege of going to Vienna, appreciate them first-hand and becoming enthralled by their beauty and detail, may be conditioning my perception, though These tapestries were already well-known and well-admired in their time and have been since then, so it wouldn't be strange to find figures extracted from them in other pieces of decorative art.

4th March 2010, 08:32 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fernando, Scenes from the Reconquista was certainly my first thought but as has been said it could be almost anything portrayed in allegory e.g. Biblical, fable etc. Not much help I'm afraid. My Regards, Norman. P.S. A very nice and interesting piece regardless.

5th March 2010, 01:35 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, I have shown this thread to the friend who owns the chalice. He was astonished with such prompt cooperation and visible knowledge. I will have to digest all the vast considerations and come back here to render my humble conclusion based on all that was said. Thanks a lot. Fernando

7th March 2010, 02:04 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So, After all thougts kindly posted, i have tried to make out a coherent panorama, focusing differently in the scenes, but i came to no conclusion. I wouldn't rule out a collage of random events put up by the decorator ... whether based on concrete events or not. The efects shown on the cup's base don't seem contemporaneous to the ones shown in the body ... i mean, to me . The lion motive misplaced, the drum looking a bit more modern than the other items (?). Also the wreath style looks later, although i can not discern any numbers ... Manolo . I also first thought the prisioners were Turks, Snefelder, same time as the soldiers could be Portuguese. After all, Portuguese main enemies when the discoveries period started were the Turks... even in the India coast. But then, we see no muskets or crossbows, much used at the time. Also the horses would be a forced situation, in such atempted context (?). The halberds style look a bit stylized or 'too modern', but that could be the artist's perspective. A different approach would be whatever nationaly soldiers having assaulted and sacked a determined place and prepare to embark with the loot ... prisioners included. But sincerly, i think is best give up my brilliant deductions and resume to the sum of the opinnions given here by you fellows. Thanks again. Fernando

30th March 2010, 05:35 AM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hola Nando, After almost all has been said, especially by our learned member A. Senefelder, all that's left to me is to state that in my opinion this chalice clearly reflects the late Italian/early German Renaissance taste of ca. 1530-40. Nevertheless, I am afraid that it actually is a Historismus production of the second half of the 19th century. Now what does make me think so? It's both the characterization of the faces and the warriors' attitude. Just my opinion though but as you know the late Gothic and early Renaissance styles are my favorites. It still might originate from the 1530's-40's which would make it a real sensation and price it somewhere in between 10,000 to 15,000 euro. Guess we should be able to see the actual item to make sure. Highly interesting and important find anyway! Best, Michael

1st April 2010, 02:58 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your observations, Michael. It sure is an 'Historimus' production; i took the pictures myself. As i said, is signed by Christofle, a manufacturer of fine silver flatware and home accessories based in France since 1830. And the price was accordingly to that. And as you say, it must be no older than close from 1900. Fernando