Eastern Java keris / Pamor Bendo Sagodo ??

asomotif · 17th June 2009, 11:16 PM

I bought this keris last year from someone who collected in in the 70's.
Only recently found time to restore the wrangka that was broken and glued with my favorit glue Bisonkit which looks like some kind of construction kit

I have seen this type of pamor before, but on this specific blade the rings of the nickel containing iron are not al the same.

There is one layer where this ring is very broad, and if you take a close look the other rings are almost invicible, although the contrast of the pamor is still pretty good.

Any comments ? is this bendo sagodo, or is it something different ?

Ps. any other ideas about the age of the blade ?

thanks and best regards,
Willem

Marcokeris · 18th June 2009, 06:49 AM

A beautiful complete east java keris. The blade seems very old (IMO more hundreds years)

Marcokeris · 18th June 2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

A beautiful complete east java keris. The blade seems very old (IMO more hundreds years)

....about pamor...

bendo sagodo

or ros rosan

...or kandang

...or some other

asomotif · 10th September 2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

(IMO more hundreds years)

Hello Marco,

there was not much feed back on this one (except you, thanks !)

Why do you think the blade is very old ?
I bought it from the person who collected it in the 70's
The dress , wrangka, ukiran to appear to be pretty recent (2nd half 20th century, I'd guess) but well made.
Because I don't have much knowledge on dapurs / pamors atec, I would than easily consider the complete keris of the same date.

Which characteristics of this blade say that it could be an old blade ?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 11th September 2009, 12:24 AM

Willem, perhaps nobody else responded to your initial post because Marco has already given as complete an answer as is reasonable.

I would place the dress of this keris as pre-WWII, although I am inclined to think that the mendak is probably considerably earlier.

The blade is without doubt an old blade, I will not be as brave as Marco and suggest hundreds of years, but it most definitely pre-dates the mid-19th century.

You have asked for an explanation of the characteristics that mark this blade as old.
Willem, this is far too broad a question to even attempt an answer.

Think about it this way:- if you saw a new Mercedes Benz automobile you would instantly recognise that that vehicle was most certainly not one from the 1950's, nor the 1930's, you would know instantly that it was most certainly not Karl Benz' invention of 1886. Equally, if you saw a Mercedes Benz from the 1950's you would immediately know that it was not a post 2000 production. You would know all of this immediately and instinctively, simply because you live in a world where the automobile is a part of your culture and your daily experience.

For people who have made a serious sturdy of the keris the situation is exactly the same:- when we see a keris that bears all of the hallmarks of age, we instantly recognise it as something that was not made yesterday. Past this it can become quite difficult, especially if we wish to classify the keris in accordance with the tangguh system.

Not all keris were made by masters. Not all keris turned out exactly as the maker had intended when he began. Not all keris comply with recognised standards. As a keris becomes older the passage of time erodes its features and it no longer looks as it looked when new.

Consider all these things and then consider the pamor carried by this keris.

It looks as if what might have been attempted was bendo sagodo/wengkon. However, this motif is no longer particularly clear. Maybe it was clear when the blade was new :- maybe it was not clear when the blade was new. As it remains at the present time it does not really comply with any recognised standard, and five different people could probably give ten different opinions.

In summary it is an old East Javanese keris of rather ordinary quality in old dress, but that dress is not as old as the blade. It would be a good solid addition to any collection.

asomotif · 11th September 2009, 12:56 AM

Dear Alan,

Thanks for your elaborate explanation.
Whenever keris are concerned I always feel a bit like Princess Leia in Star Wars.
ie. "You are my only hope..." (Obi Wan Kenobi, than being replaced by A.G. Maisey

)

With my very limited, if not almost absent knowledge it turns out to be difficult to get any idea of age when a keris turns out to be well preserved or when it is lacking other signs of age, such as wear and patina

Thanks again and best regards,
Willem

17th June 2009, 11:16 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Eastern Java keris / Pamor Bendo Sagodo ?? I bought this keris last year from someone who collected in in the 70's. Only recently found time to restore the wrangka that was broken and glued with my favorit glue Bisonkit which looks like some kind of construction kit I have seen this type of pamor before, but on this specific blade the rings of the nickel containing iron are not al the same. There is one layer where this ring is very broad, and if you take a close look the other rings are almost invicible, although the contrast of the pamor is still pretty good. Any comments ? is this bendo sagodo, or is it something different ? Ps. any other ideas about the age of the blade ? thanks and best regards, Willem Attached Images

18th June 2009, 06:49 AM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	A beautiful complete east java keris. The blade seems very old (IMO more hundreds years)

11th September 2009, 12:24 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	Willem, perhaps nobody else responded to your initial post because Marco has already given as complete an answer as is reasonable. I would place the dress of this keris as pre-WWII, although I am inclined to think that the mendak is probably considerably earlier. The blade is without doubt an old blade, I will not be as brave as Marco and suggest hundreds of years, but it most definitely pre-dates the mid-19th century. You have asked for an explanation of the characteristics that mark this blade as old. Willem, this is far too broad a question to even attempt an answer. Think about it this way:- if you saw a new Mercedes Benz automobile you would instantly recognise that that vehicle was most certainly not one from the 1950's, nor the 1930's, you would know instantly that it was most certainly not Karl Benz' invention of 1886. Equally, if you saw a Mercedes Benz from the 1950's you would immediately know that it was not a post 2000 production. You would know all of this immediately and instinctively, simply because you live in a world where the automobile is a part of your culture and your daily experience. For people who have made a serious sturdy of the keris the situation is exactly the same:- when we see a keris that bears all of the hallmarks of age, we instantly recognise it as something that was not made yesterday. Past this it can become quite difficult, especially if we wish to classify the keris in accordance with the tangguh system. Not all keris were made by masters. Not all keris turned out exactly as the maker had intended when he began. Not all keris comply with recognised standards. As a keris becomes older the passage of time erodes its features and it no longer looks as it looked when new. Consider all these things and then consider the pamor carried by this keris. It looks as if what might have been attempted was bendo sagodo/wengkon. However, this motif is no longer particularly clear. Maybe it was clear when the blade was new :- maybe it was not clear when the blade was new. As it remains at the present time it does not really comply with any recognised standard, and five different people could probably give ten different opinions. In summary it is an old East Javanese keris of rather ordinary quality in old dress, but that dress is not as old as the blade. It would be a good solid addition to any collection.

11th September 2009, 12:56 AM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Dear Alan, Thanks for your elaborate explanation. Whenever keris are concerned I always feel a bit like Princess Leia in Star Wars. ie. "You are my only hope..." (Obi Wan Kenobi, than being replaced by A.G. Maisey ) With my very limited, if not almost absent knowledge it turns out to be difficult to get any idea of age when a keris turns out to be well preserved or when it is lacking other signs of age, such as wear and patina Thanks again and best regards, Willem