Manchu markings on blades

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2009, 09:38 PM

The very interesting thread by Iliad with a Chinese oxtail sabre and the discussion about the term 'Manchu' describing these swords which are generally held as civilian has brought up a matter of curiosity.

In searching through old notes I found some on a willow leaf (liuyedao) sabre which apparantly had inscription on the blade in Manchu characters. This research is about 14 years old, but the current discussion has me wondering why would this sword have had this inscription in Manchu.

The sabre itself was mounted in the familiar Qing mounts of military style from the 19th century, but I was informed that the 'tortoise shell' covering on scabbard and grips likely precluded military use. This leaves probable use to an official of the court or perhaps a parade weapon.

In discussions with Philip Tom in 2000, he noted that military equipment with Manchu markings are seldom ever found, although he does note a 17th century sabre with Manchu and Chinese inscriptions.

On the sabre I was researching, I was able to have some of the legible inscription translated after considerable effort through Universities and authorities on Asian languages in 1996. The characters noted simple references that would seem to have been applied in arsenal type acceptance markings, one was the word 'dehehe' indicated as 'tempered, refined' along with essentially the word dao.

In what I have found in references concerning the use of the Manchu language in China from the beginning of the Qing (Manchu) dynasty in 1644, it seems that the immersion within Chinese dominions rather quickly diminished the use of the native tonque. With the adoption of Mandarin as the lingua francia, by the latter 18th century, it seems that few ranking officials of the dynasty could comprehend let alone read or write Manchu, and that only limited official records used this language.

In current references, it is noted that less than 70 living persons speak the original Manchu language, while it is said that the Xibo, descendants of early Manchu garrisons, speak a virtually identical language.

I would like to ask for opinions from those of you interested in, and collectors of, Chinese weapons....

Why would this blade on a willow leaf sabre have been marked with Manchu inscription, since apparantly this was not typically done?
We know that at least one other sword blade has Manchu marks (mentioned by Philip Tom) and it is from the 17th century. Perhaps this blade was of similar period, the Ming dynasty ended 1644, and by the mid part of the 18th the use of Manchu script fell out of practice?

It is interesting that administrative divisions in which all Manchu families were placed were known as the Eight Banners, and this was the basis for the Manchu military organization. It seems that these garrisons were often comprised of varying ethnic groups, and I am wondering if this factor may have had anything to do with longer use of Manchu language....
also perhaps adoption of the heavy flared tip blades from the steppes may have been brought in through western garrisoned Manchu troops.

Just thinking out loud here, and would very much like to hear other thoughts on these markings, why they are so rare, and the use of Manchu sabre to describe the oxtail (niuweidao).

Best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 22nd May 2009, 11:29 PM

G'day Jim,

I was surfing through the postings and I found this lonely and very interesting little thread.
From your description of this piece, it sounds very attractive, something I would be proud to own and display.
If Philip suggests it precludes military use that is good enough for most as there is not a lot he doesn't know about these arms.
I could substantiate this thought based on the common short Jian that are often found in tortoise shell.
Speaking to a learned Hong Kong collector some time ago, he explained that the tortoise shell jian that some people refer to as "tourist" were actually gifts to dignitaries in the mid 1800's, he also indicated that there are some found in SEA museums with this providence.
I too have shared images of a variant in tortoise shell and silver with you some time back, not something you'd ever see in military units.
I would think it is safe to say it was most likely a civilian/private piece, quite possibly a gift of a high standard to a worthy individual.
I'm afraid I cannot be of much more use that that. I know there are others out there who may have an idea too.
I'd love to see an image of some sort should you have one you could scan; a picture as you know tells a whole new story on its own.

Regards

Gav

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2009, 07:41 AM

Hi Gav, and thank you for noticing my little soliloquy here!!
I really appreciate the response, and the information on the tortoise shell material is most interesting. You're absolutely right...not much escapes Philip on these weapons, and when information comes from him I consider it pretty much the final word on the topic.

I think your note on presentation items to dignitaries is very well placed, especially as it seems there was a great deal of diplomatic activity in China from the time of the Qianlong emperor and preceding the turmoil of the 19th century.

Fascinating history!~!

All the best,
Jim

20th May 2009, 09:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Manchu markings on blades The very interesting thread by Iliad with a Chinese oxtail sabre and the discussion about the term 'Manchu' describing these swords which are generally held as civilian has brought up a matter of curiosity. In searching through old notes I found some on a willow leaf (liuyedao) sabre which apparantly had inscription on the blade in Manchu characters. This research is about 14 years old, but the current discussion has me wondering why would this sword have had this inscription in Manchu. The sabre itself was mounted in the familiar Qing mounts of military style from the 19th century, but I was informed that the 'tortoise shell' covering on scabbard and grips likely precluded military use. This leaves probable use to an official of the court or perhaps a parade weapon. In discussions with Philip Tom in 2000, he noted that military equipment with Manchu markings are seldom ever found, although he does note a 17th century sabre with Manchu and Chinese inscriptions. On the sabre I was researching, I was able to have some of the legible inscription translated after considerable effort through Universities and authorities on Asian languages in 1996. The characters noted simple references that would seem to have been applied in arsenal type acceptance markings, one was the word 'dehehe' indicated as 'tempered, refined' along with essentially the word dao. In what I have found in references concerning the use of the Manchu language in China from the beginning of the Qing (Manchu) dynasty in 1644, it seems that the immersion within Chinese dominions rather quickly diminished the use of the native tonque. With the adoption of Mandarin as the lingua francia, by the latter 18th century, it seems that few ranking officials of the dynasty could comprehend let alone read or write Manchu, and that only limited official records used this language. In current references, it is noted that less than 70 living persons speak the original Manchu language, while it is said that the Xibo, descendants of early Manchu garrisons, speak a virtually identical language. I would like to ask for opinions from those of you interested in, and collectors of, Chinese weapons.... Why would this blade on a willow leaf sabre have been marked with Manchu inscription, since apparantly this was not typically done? We know that at least one other sword blade has Manchu marks (mentioned by Philip Tom) and it is from the 17th century. Perhaps this blade was of similar period, the Ming dynasty ended 1644, and by the mid part of the 18th the use of Manchu script fell out of practice? It is interesting that administrative divisions in which all Manchu families were placed were known as the Eight Banners, and this was the basis for the Manchu military organization. It seems that these garrisons were often comprised of varying ethnic groups, and I am wondering if this factor may have had anything to do with longer use of Manchu language.... also perhaps adoption of the heavy flared tip blades from the steppes may have been brought in through western garrisoned Manchu troops. Just thinking out loud here, and would very much like to hear other thoughts on these markings, why they are so rare, and the use of Manchu sabre to describe the oxtail (niuweidao). Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2009, 11:29 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Lonely G'day Jim, I was surfing through the postings and I found this lonely and very interesting little thread. From your description of this piece, it sounds very attractive, something I would be proud to own and display. If Philip suggests it precludes military use that is good enough for most as there is not a lot he doesn't know about these arms. I could substantiate this thought based on the common short Jian that are often found in tortoise shell. Speaking to a learned Hong Kong collector some time ago, he explained that the tortoise shell jian that some people refer to as "tourist" were actually gifts to dignitaries in the mid 1800's, he also indicated that there are some found in SEA museums with this providence. I too have shared images of a variant in tortoise shell and silver with you some time back, not something you'd ever see in military units. I would think it is safe to say it was most likely a civilian/private piece, quite possibly a gift of a high standard to a worthy individual. I'm afraid I cannot be of much more use that that. I know there are others out there who may have an idea too. I'd love to see an image of some sort should you have one you could scan; a picture as you know tells a whole new story on its own. Regards Gav

23rd May 2009, 07:41 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Gav, and thank you for noticing my little soliloquy here!! I really appreciate the response, and the information on the tortoise shell material is most interesting. You're absolutely right...not much escapes Philip on these weapons, and when information comes from him I consider it pretty much the final word on the topic. I think your note on presentation items to dignitaries is very well placed, especially as it seems there was a great deal of diplomatic activity in China from the time of the Qianlong emperor and preceding the turmoil of the 19th century. Fascinating history!~! All the best, Jim