German Sword XVI century ?

Arcteryx · 6th December 2022, 07:49 PM

hello,
I would like help in identification, the inscription ANNO DOMINI on the blade and IOHANES ME FECIT on the other side

CSinTX · 7th December 2022, 12:29 AM

Could you post more pics of the hilt?

AHorsa · 7th December 2022, 07:52 PM

I guess that is a nice 16th century Dussagge

South German or Austrian possibly. Sadly without pommel. Nice piece

Arcteryx · 7th December 2022, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

I guess that is a nice 16th century Dussagge

South German or Austrian possibly. Sadly without pommel. Nice piece

thank you

Dmitry · 8th December 2022, 03:15 AM

I read ME FECIT IOHANNE (Made by Johannes) ANNO DOMINI (in the year of our Lord ....).

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2022, 11:29 AM

Most interesting 'dusagge' and strongly resembling these types often seen from 17th into as late as 18th century in the Netherlands, but it seems the Dutch forms have obverse thumb ring on the hilt. As noted, these types of sabers/cutlasses were well known throughout Germany (from about mid 16th c. with these kinds of shell guards *) and Northern Europe. I believe in Norway sabers of this type were termed 'tessak'.
The alternating quillons of the guard seem to have notable variation in the numerous examples seen.

I think these are one of the most desirable early forms as they are most typically associated with sea service and as cutlasses, in many cases seen in pirate lore. In fact, in the lexicon of piracy, the term 'shell' is loosely noted as referring to a cutlass.

Even without the rest of the hilt, this is an attractive and keenly representative example, and in the rugged condition these are often found. I am particularly intrigued by the interestingly adapted inscription, similar to many seen on Solingen blades, and the rougher than usual lettering. If I understand correctly, ANNO DOMINI (=in the year of our Lord) should have a year with it, so curious if that is no longer distinguishable.

* "European Weapons and Armour", E.Oakeshott, 1980, p.155, fig.67

cornelistromp · 9th December 2022, 12:36 PM

it seems to me a recent reproduction, patinated and aged.

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2022, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it seems to me a recent reproduction, patinated and aged.

Well noted, and as I mentioned, the 'inscription' is rather unbelievable.
While disappointing of course, at least a chance to examine this type of sword as a form, and see an example of the kinds of 'interpretations' that are out there.

Arcteryx · 10th December 2022, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted, and as I mentioned, the 'inscription' is rather unbelievable.
While disappointing of course, at least a chance to examine this type of sword as a form, and see an example of the kinds of 'interpretations' that are out there.

it is an original saber which was combined with a bayonet grip... added in the era

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2022, 11:27 PM

Hilt is very similar to a French M1767 grenadiers briquet but likely one of the later examples. Looks like there was a langet. Fits quite handily.

Arcteryx · 11th December 2022, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hilt is very similar to a French M1767 grenadiers briquet but likely one of the later examples. Looks like there was a langet. Fits quite handily.

yes, thank You, but the handle in this case does not matter, I wanted to identify the saber

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2022, 03:56 PM

It is true, the handle which obviously was not part of the sword originally is not of consequence specifically, but sometimes might offer context as to where this might have been put together. For example, a French brass hilt might place it in French context.

While it is suggested this may be a more modern interpretation of one of these shell guard swords, the fact that it is of a sword type which seems to have been favored literally over centuries. This is a very rudimentary munitions quality version, which means it could have been produced as a weapon for use in certain conditions or situations by other than regular military forces.
Still the placement of the very badly executed inscription is troubling, and wondering why it was placed on the blade at all.

I have an example of this kind of 'assembled' weapon of composite sword components which in from Mexican context, probably as an ersatz type of espada ancha. In rural regions of Mexico, virtually everything was 'recycled'
and this use of old sword elements seems a good example of this kind of innovation.

The hilt is of brass, clearly a briquet, most likely French; the guard is from a three bar cavalry saber; the blade is a cut down broadsword blade from the ubiquitous 'bilbo' type blades which were circulating in these regions from the Spanish period into Mexican.

Naturally the possibility of the 'creation' of these kinds of weapons by unscrupulous dealers or sellers is always present, but the optimistic side of us always wonders.....what if?

6th December 2022, 07:49 PM	#1
Arcteryx Member Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 4	German Sword XVI century ? hello, I would like help in identification, the inscription ANNO DOMINI on the blade and IOHANES ME FECIT on the other side Attached Images

8th December 2022, 11:29 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Most interesting 'dusagge' and strongly resembling these types often seen from 17th into as late as 18th century in the Netherlands, but it seems the Dutch forms have obverse thumb ring on the hilt. As noted, these types of sabers/cutlasses were well known throughout Germany (from about mid 16th c. with these kinds of shell guards ) and Northern Europe. I believe in Norway sabers of this type were termed 'tessak'. The alternating quillons of the guard seem to have notable variation in the numerous examples seen. I think these are one of the most desirable early forms as they are most typically associated with sea service and as cutlasses, in many cases seen in pirate lore. In fact, in the lexicon of piracy, the term 'shell' is loosely noted as referring to a cutlass. Even without the rest of the hilt, this is an attractive and keenly representative example, and in the rugged condition these are often found. I am particularly intrigued by the interestingly adapted inscription, similar to many seen on Solingen blades, and the rougher than usual lettering. If I understand correctly, ANNO DOMINI (=in the year of our Lord) should have a year with it, so curious if that is no longer distinguishable. "European Weapons and Armour", E.Oakeshott, 1980, p.155, fig.67 Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th December 2022 at 11:44 AM.

10th December 2022, 11:27 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Hilt is very similar to a French M1767 grenadiers briquet but likely one of the later examples. Looks like there was a langet. Fits quite handily. Attached Images

11th December 2022, 03:56 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	It is true, the handle which obviously was not part of the sword originally is not of consequence specifically, but sometimes might offer context as to where this might have been put together. For example, a French brass hilt might place it in French context. While it is suggested this may be a more modern interpretation of one of these shell guard swords, the fact that it is of a sword type which seems to have been favored literally over centuries. This is a very rudimentary munitions quality version, which means it could have been produced as a weapon for use in certain conditions or situations by other than regular military forces. Still the placement of the very badly executed inscription is troubling, and wondering why it was placed on the blade at all. I have an example of this kind of 'assembled' weapon of composite sword components which in from Mexican context, probably as an ersatz type of espada ancha. In rural regions of Mexico, virtually everything was 'recycled' and this use of old sword elements seems a good example of this kind of innovation. The hilt is of brass, clearly a briquet, most likely French; the guard is from a three bar cavalry saber; the blade is a cut down broadsword blade from the ubiquitous 'bilbo' type blades which were circulating in these regions from the Spanish period into Mexican. Naturally the possibility of the 'creation' of these kinds of weapons by unscrupulous dealers or sellers is always present, but the optimistic side of us always wonders.....what if? Attached Images

7th December 2022, 12:29 AM	#2
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Could you post more pics of the hilt?

7th December 2022, 07:52 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I guess that is a nice 16th century Dussagge South German or Austrian possibly. Sadly without pommel. Nice piece

8th December 2022, 03:15 AM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I read ME FECIT IOHANNE (Made by Johannes) ANNO DOMINI (in the year of our Lord ....).

9th December 2022, 12:36 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	it seems to me a recent reproduction, patinated and aged.