A Piece of U.S. History

Rick · 2nd December 2016, 06:39 AM

Purportedly an 1808 English boarding cutlass taken from the deck of the Guerriere when she was beaten in an action with USS Constitution Isaac Hull commanding.

Auction realized $7k plus 25% fee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Co..._HMS_Guerriere

RobertGuy · 2nd December 2016, 08:59 AM

I think the 1808 was an American cutlass pattern. This is the British 1804 pattern

.
Could we have it back please

Fernando K · 2nd December 2016, 01:08 PM

Se non e vero.....e ben trovato....

Rick · 3rd December 2016, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

I think the 1808 was an American cutlass pattern. This is the British 1804 pattern

.
Could we have it back please

Well, that's auction houses for you; thanks for clearing that up Robert.
To answer your question.

No.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2016, 09:57 PM

I guess it pretty much depends on the auction house.
What is great about these provenance examples is that they reflect the character and nuances of authentic pieces. With these, like many other historically significant forms, there are many reproduction and deliberately misrepresented items out there.

The realized price reflects the dramatic values which might attract such activity. Even a mundane item of the time such as this otherwise simple other ranks weapon carries an inherent value monetarily as history incarnate.

Interesting to read the link, and details of this battle. The American captain refused to accept the opponents surrender sword. The men off the British ship were brought aboard as the badly damaged ship sank. It would seem that after the cessation of combat, gentlemanly behavior prevailed between combatants and this cutlass probably acquired by one of the crewmen in less pronounced exchange as men and materials transferred to the Constitution.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2016, 10:22 PM

Just notes for readers on the actual American M1808 cutlass.

These were a contract to Nathan Starr, and only 1000 ordered. They were the first departure from the familiar 'figure 8' or double disc form with its full sheet guard.
The example of OP appears to be by Gill, British maker Birmingham England.

References:
"Boarders Away" Gilkerson, p.96
"The American Sword 1775-1945" Peterson, p.52
"Small Arms of Sea Services" Rankin, p.45

Rick · 3rd December 2016, 10:52 PM

I notice that there is something stamped on the spine of the blade near the guard but I can't quite make it out.

Ideas?

RobertGuy · 3rd December 2016, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I notice that there is something stamped on the spine of the blade near the guard but I can't quite make it out.

Ideas?

Rick If you are refering to the British 1804 then what you see is the Royal Cypher for King George III (GR with a crown above)

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2016, 01:02 AM

On the spine, it is the makers name, in accord with standard British practice....in this case, Gill.

2nd December 2016, 06:39 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A Piece of U.S. History Purportedly an 1808 English boarding cutlass taken from the deck of the Guerriere when she was beaten in an action with USS Constitution Isaac Hull commanding. Auction realized $7k plus 25% fee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Co..._HMS_Guerriere Attached Images

2nd December 2016, 08:59 AM	#2
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	I think the 1808 was an American cutlass pattern. This is the British 1804 pattern. Could we have it back please

3rd December 2016, 10:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Just notes for readers on the actual American M1808 cutlass. These were a contract to Nathan Starr, and only 1000 ordered. They were the first departure from the familiar 'figure 8' or double disc form with its full sheet guard. The example of OP appears to be by Gill, British maker Birmingham England. References: "Boarders Away" Gilkerson, p.96 "The American Sword 1775-1945" Peterson, p.52 "Small Arms of Sea Services" Rankin, p.45 Attached Images

2nd December 2016, 01:08 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Se non e vero.....e ben trovato....

3rd December 2016, 09:57 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I guess it pretty much depends on the auction house. What is great about these provenance examples is that they reflect the character and nuances of authentic pieces. With these, like many other historically significant forms, there are many reproduction and deliberately misrepresented items out there. The realized price reflects the dramatic values which might attract such activity. Even a mundane item of the time such as this otherwise simple other ranks weapon carries an inherent value monetarily as history incarnate. Interesting to read the link, and details of this battle. The American captain refused to accept the opponents surrender sword. The men off the British ship were brought aboard as the badly damaged ship sank. It would seem that after the cessation of combat, gentlemanly behavior prevailed between combatants and this cutlass probably acquired by one of the crewmen in less pronounced exchange as men and materials transferred to the Constitution.

3rd December 2016, 10:52 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I notice that there is something stamped on the spine of the blade near the guard but I can't quite make it out. Ideas?

4th December 2016, 01:02 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	On the spine, it is the makers name, in accord with standard British practice....in this case, Gill.