Katars with more hand defence PIC

suruti71x · 4th September 2023, 09:37 PM

I'd love to see any pics of Katars with more hand Defense than the standard
I'd like to know if there's anything like an "armoured katar". By this, I mean a katar which is either built into a gauntlet , or simply a katar which defenses the back of the hand AND the writ

Battara · 5th September 2023, 02:05 AM

Greetings and welcome to our little forum!

You will find katars like what you describe on South Indian examples.

werecow · 5th September 2023, 02:58 PM

It sounds like you're describing a "hooded katar" (see below), or possibly even a pata gauntlet sword (last pic).

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2023, 05:37 PM

Welcome!
As already noted, the 'hooded' katars are primarily associated with examples from 17th-18th century Vijayanagara in S.India . The early examples had wide triangular shaped blades that were notably channeled in a distinct fashion and it is believed the so called 'gauntlet' sword was of course associated and developed contemporarily.

The transverse grip convention is distinctive to the katar, and we have long discussed the potential origins of the form, with Jens Nordlund and Brian Issac, as well as Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual", 2004) being the foremost authorities on this.

The katar was actually more of a slashing weapon, and as the form diffused west and north into Mahratta, Rajput and Mughal regions, along with the advent of European blade availability, the thickened point aligned with the thrust brought the idea of this being a thrusting weapon. The Mahratta however disdained the thrust and examples remained in use as slashing weapons. In modern martial demonstrations in ceremonial ritual the pata (gauntlet sword) is used in pairs....using them in almost a 'windmill' fashion.

With the evolving katar types outside the southern sphere, the open hilt with transverse grip became the norm, while the hand protection of the gauntlet remained prevalent with the pata broadswords (gauntlet swords).

Battara · 9th September 2023, 02:26 AM

Werecow - great examples of what I'm talking about!

werecow · 9th September 2023, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Werecow - great examples of what I'm talking about!

I can do the google!

(The pata is the only one I actually own.)

Also for completeness let's add a couple of sword sized ones, because they're buckets of fun.

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2023, 04:26 PM

I think its a matter similar to 'at what point does a dirk become a short sword' or the nebulous area of when does a sword become a knife? The katar and the pata were contemporary weapons and as examples of katar often used longer blades, and the variations of pata type hilts of course would be hard to categorize.

It is part of the futility in trying to distinctly categorize and classify the many forms of ethnographic edged weapons succinctly.

Whatever the case, these are some of the most intriguing edged weapons of India, and its great to see the variations brought into discussion.

4th September 2023, 09:37 PM	#1
suruti71x Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 3	Katars with more hand defence PIC I'd love to see any pics of Katars with more hand Defense than the standard I'd like to know if there's anything like an "armoured katar". By this, I mean a katar which is either built into a gauntlet , or simply a katar which defenses the back of the hand AND the writ

5th September 2023, 02:58 PM	#3
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 499	It sounds like you're describing a "hooded katar" (see below), or possibly even a pata gauntlet sword (last pic). Attached Images

5th September 2023, 02:05 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Greetings and welcome to our little forum! You will find katars like what you describe on South Indian examples.

5th September 2023, 05:37 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Welcome! As already noted, the 'hooded' katars are primarily associated with examples from 17th-18th century Vijayanagara in S.India . The early examples had wide triangular shaped blades that were notably channeled in a distinct fashion and it is believed the so called 'gauntlet' sword was of course associated and developed contemporarily. The transverse grip convention is distinctive to the katar, and we have long discussed the potential origins of the form, with Jens Nordlund and Brian Issac, as well as Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual", 2004) being the foremost authorities on this. The katar was actually more of a slashing weapon, and as the form diffused west and north into Mahratta, Rajput and Mughal regions, along with the advent of European blade availability, the thickened point aligned with the thrust brought the idea of this being a thrusting weapon. The Mahratta however disdained the thrust and examples remained in use as slashing weapons. In modern martial demonstrations in ceremonial ritual the pata (gauntlet sword) is used in pairs....using them in almost a 'windmill' fashion. With the evolving katar types outside the southern sphere, the open hilt with transverse grip became the norm, while the hand protection of the gauntlet remained prevalent with the pata broadswords (gauntlet swords).

9th September 2023, 02:26 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Werecow - great examples of what I'm talking about!

9th September 2023, 04:26 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	I think its a matter similar to 'at what point does a dirk become a short sword' or the nebulous area of when does a sword become a knife? The katar and the pata were contemporary weapons and as examples of katar often used longer blades, and the variations of pata type hilts of course would be hard to categorize. It is part of the futility in trying to distinctly categorize and classify the many forms of ethnographic edged weapons succinctly. Whatever the case, these are some of the most intriguing edged weapons of India, and its great to see the variations brought into discussion.