If Not a Barong,Then What?

drac2k · 20th August 2023, 07:29 PM

I picked up several items at auction yesterday and one of these was this curious sword; the blade measures 17.75" long, 2.75" at its widest and it has a sharp edge from the tip running 7" down the spine.
Can anyone give me more information on this sword?
PS, the cutting edge is the rounded one.

Sajen · 22nd August 2023, 01:41 AM

It's junk! Please send it to me, I dispose it for you!!

No clue what it is, it's very nice, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 22nd August 2023, 02:50 AM

Thanks Sajen, you could be right, lol.I didn't know what it was so like a dummy, I decided to buy it.

Battara · 22nd August 2023, 04:20 AM

It is old and unique. The wood is damaging and the inlays are bone. Very nice.

drac2k · 22nd August 2023, 04:44 AM

Do you know what is called and where is the wood damaged; is there some part of the carving missing?

Sajen · 22nd August 2023, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Do you know what is called and where is the wood damaged; is there some part of the carving missing?

In front of the handle seems a tiny part missing, that's what Jose means I think.

mariusgmioc · 22nd August 2023, 08:49 PM

Why not BARONG?!

I am not very knowledgeable about this but to my eyes this is a barong, albeit the widening of the blade is slightly more pronounced towards the tip than in the classic barongs.

Sajen · 22nd August 2023, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why not BARONG?!

I am not very knowledgeable about this but to my eyes this is a barong, albeit the widening of the blade is slightly more pronounced towards the tip than in the classic barongs.

Hi Marius,

Please compare: First pic. barungs from Spunjer, sec. pic. barungs from Kino, third pic. my own ones, last pic. the sword from Drac2k.

The spine of a barung blade is never straight like by the sword from Drac2k.

Regards,
Detlef

mariusgmioc · 22nd August 2023, 11:25 PM

Thank you Detlef for the clear and well illustrated explanation.

Indeed there are enough differences that set this blade apart from the barong family.

Battara · 23rd August 2023, 03:15 AM

Yes that part of your hilt is damaged, and made of kamagong (I hate spell check

).

drac2k · 23rd August 2023, 06:07 AM

That is not damage, but rather a beauty mark,lol ;I see it and thanks for the information.

Interested Party · 23rd August 2023, 04:19 PM

I knew I had seen this style of hilt before. Sorry for the bad pictures. If I get a chance, I will replace the first one. There wasn't natural light yet. Here are two pages from Cato. I know the point slopes the wrong way, but could this be from the bangkung family, posibly with an influence from the Northern Philippine states? The example in the original post has a mouth the to me looks like a stylized crocodile.

Whatever it is it was a good find. The sad thing about living faraway from cities is that I never find anything like this

kai · 23rd August 2023, 10:51 PM

No, this naga hilt style is found with a wide variety of blades.

I have difficulties to understand the urge to assign variant blades to well-known styles. We do know that in addition the common types there was quite some more variety of Moro blades. While we may not be able to establish their traditional names anymore (unless more research digs up additional period sources or via informants from those cultures), let's just accept that there are oddballs around.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 23rd August 2023, 11:07 PM

Agree completely with Kai! We have seen more Moro oddballs at this place than this one.

Look only to this three threads:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro

kai · 23rd August 2023, 11:23 PM

Congrats, really neat piece!

Quote:

one of these was this curious sword; the blade measures 17.75" long, 2.75" at its widest and it has a sharp edge from the tip running 7" down the spine.

What is the max thickness of this blade?

While the bone inlay, the silver punto, and the silver braidings seem to suggest honest age, I get mixed feelings: While stylistically correct, the scabbard is pretty roughly finished - something I haven't seen from 19th century status examples; I'm also not convinced the hilt being kamagong (from the limited pics, the surface texture seems to be off) - could this possibly be a stained, medium-weight timber? I'd be inclined to place this ensemble into the first half of the 20th c. Just a gut feeling though.

The fittings are clearly Sulu work, Tausug specifically I believe. While the blade may originate inside the culture, I couldn't exclude it being a Maranao trade blade, especially if later.

Regards,
Kai

David · 23rd August 2023, 11:39 PM

I adjusted this photo for a better view. Can someone point out the damaged part of this hilt? I am afraid i do not see it.
Nice find btw!

Sajen · 23rd August 2023, 11:44 PM

I am not sure if it is in front, but I think this marked tiny loss was meant by Jose.

And by this break it looks indeed like kamagong.

kai · 23rd August 2023, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Can someone point out the damaged part of this hilt? I am afraid i do not see it.

David, Jose's mention of "damaging" was an autocorrection glitch when trying to type kamagong...

drac2k · 24th August 2023, 05:11 AM

The max. width at the base of the spine is a 1/4"; the wood is very dense and heavy, more so than any mahogany that I am familiar with and it does not appear to be stained. The scabbard is not of the same quality as the sword so it could be a replacement sheath or maybe just like some beautiful kampilans with very crude breakaway scabbards for combat.
Tomorrow I will post a barong that came from the same collection, covered in the same cosmoline grease, which indicates that they were collected at the same time; maybe the barong can help date the other item.
Thanks for all of the comments and the great pictures!

Ian · 24th August 2023, 12:37 PM

Hi drac,

That's an interesting old piece. The naga hilt is an unusual item and very similar to the one in Cato's book. I suspect the wood is kumagong, which is used sometimes for Moro hilts. It is very dark and dense.

As to what your blade is, that's a bit of a mystery. The blade is very forward weighted, much like a Mandaya general purpose bolo. It does not correspond to the leaf-shape profile of a barung. I looked back at some of the archive pictures of Moro weapons plaques and found a somewhat similar example in my large plaque from the 1930s: see the bottom left item in the central panel here. Unfortunately, the examples are not named on this old handmade plaque. Nevertheless, the blade profile may once have been in the Moro repertoire of weapons or general purpose blades, as your example suggests.

Heavy, forward weighted blades are seen among other Filipino groups. I mentioned the Mandaya already, and I've seen similar Bagobo blades, but this type of blade is also common among the Ifugao groups and others in central and northern Luzon. I would not be surprised if there are Visayan and Bicolano versions also. The design seems well suited to heavy chopping.

As to what this knife/sword might have been called, I don't know. I suspect it may have been made in Zamboanga.

drac2k · 24th August 2023, 05:02 PM

Ian thank you and others for your insightful comments. Here is another weapon that I believe was collected at the same time; maybe it can at least help date the item.

kai · 24th August 2023, 10:27 PM

Neat old barung, indeed! Dimensions?

Tausug, 19th c.

Nice scabbard with damaged tip; I'd believe that the thread covering it is a later addition.

I don't think it places much weight on dating the other piece - apparently a good ol' collection though.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 24th August 2023, 10:45 PM

Quote:

The max. width at the base of the spine is a 1/4"

That's on the thin side considering the blade length.

Quote:

the wood is very dense and heavy, more so than any mahogany that I am familiar with and it does not appear to be stained.

Great, pics can be deceiving! Sounds like kamagong, indeed.

If you compare the carving quality of both hilts, I still believe there is a difference which might be best explained by different periods, especially considering that the typical barung is a working piece while the naga hilt certainly has status function.

Maybe the cosmoline contributed to the color of the bone inserts.

Regards,
Kai

drac2k · 25th August 2023, 05:08 AM

The barong blade is 17" long and 2 5/8" at its widest. Even though the handle wasn't covered in cosmoline, it was dirty and I'm sure some of it rubbed on, so the bone inserts certainly could have been stained by it.
Thanks for the additional information.

David · 25th August 2023, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

David, Jose's mention of "damaging" was an autocorrection glitch when trying to type kamagong...

As per Jose's post #10.

David · 25th August 2023, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am not sure if it is in front, but I think this marked tiny loss was meant by Jose.

And by this break it looks indeed like kamagong.

Thanks Detlef. That does look like it could be minor damage. Better photos of the area would tell more.

23rd August 2023, 04:19 PM	#12
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 471	bangkung family? I knew I had seen this style of hilt before. Sorry for the bad pictures. If I get a chance, I will replace the first one. There wasn't natural light yet. Here are two pages from Cato. I know the point slopes the wrong way, but could this be from the bangkung family, posibly with an influence from the Northern Philippine states? The example in the original post has a mouth the to me looks like a stylized crocodile. Whatever it is it was a good find. The sad thing about living faraway from cities is that I never find anything like this Attached Images

23rd August 2023, 11:07 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Agree completely with Kai! We have seen more Moro oddballs at this place than this one. Look only to this three threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Moro Last edited by Sajen; 23rd August 2023 at 11:27 PM.

23rd August 2023, 11:39 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I adjusted this photo for a better view. Can someone point out the damaged part of this hilt? I am afraid i do not see it. Nice find btw! Attached Images

23rd August 2023, 11:44 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I am not sure if it is in front, but I think this marked tiny loss was meant by Jose. And by this break it looks indeed like kamagong. Attached Images

24th August 2023, 05:02 PM	#21
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Ian thank you and others for your insightful comments. Here is another weapon that I believe was collected at the same time; maybe it can at least help date the item. Attached Images

20th August 2023, 07:29 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	If Not a Barong,Then What? I picked up several items at auction yesterday and one of these was this curious sword; the blade measures 17.75" long, 2.75" at its widest and it has a sharp edge from the tip running 7" down the spine. Can anyone give me more information on this sword? PS, the cutting edge is the rounded one. Attached Images Last edited by drac2k; 20th August 2023 at 07:31 PM. Reason: add info.

22nd August 2023, 01:41 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	It's junk! Please send it to me, I dispose it for you!! No clue what it is, it's very nice, congrats! Regards, Detlef

22nd August 2023, 02:50 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks Sajen, you could be right, lol.I didn't know what it was so like a dummy, I decided to buy it.

22nd August 2023, 04:20 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	It is old and unique. The wood is damaging and the inlays are bone. Very nice.

22nd August 2023, 04:44 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Do you know what is called and where is the wood damaged; is there some part of the carving missing?

22nd August 2023, 08:49 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Why not BARONG?! I am not very knowledgeable about this but to my eyes this is a barong, albeit the widening of the blade is slightly more pronounced towards the tip than in the classic barongs.

22nd August 2023, 11:25 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you Detlef for the clear and well illustrated explanation. Indeed there are enough differences that set this blade apart from the barong family.

23rd August 2023, 03:15 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Yes that part of your hilt is damaged, and made of kamagong (I hate spell check ).

23rd August 2023, 06:07 AM	#11
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	That is not damage, but rather a beauty mark,lol ;I see it and thanks for the information.

23rd August 2023, 10:51 PM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	No, this naga hilt style is found with a wide variety of blades. I have difficulties to understand the urge to assign variant blades to well-known styles. We do know that in addition the common types there was quite some more variety of Moro blades. While we may not be able to establish their traditional names anymore (unless more research digs up additional period sources or via informants from those cultures), let's just accept that there are oddballs around. Regards, Kai

24th August 2023, 05:11 AM	#19
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	The max. width at the base of the spine is a 1/4"; the wood is very dense and heavy, more so than any mahogany that I am familiar with and it does not appear to be stained. The scabbard is not of the same quality as the sword so it could be a replacement sheath or maybe just like some beautiful kampilans with very crude breakaway scabbards for combat. Tomorrow I will post a barong that came from the same collection, covered in the same cosmoline grease, which indicates that they were collected at the same time; maybe the barong can help date the other item. Thanks for all of the comments and the great pictures!

24th August 2023, 12:37 PM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi drac, That's an interesting old piece. The naga hilt is an unusual item and very similar to the one in Cato's book. I suspect the wood is kumagong, which is used sometimes for Moro hilts. It is very dark and dense. As to what your blade is, that's a bit of a mystery. The blade is very forward weighted, much like a Mandaya general purpose bolo. It does not correspond to the leaf-shape profile of a barung. I looked back at some of the archive pictures of Moro weapons plaques and found a somewhat similar example in my large plaque from the 1930s: see the bottom left item in the central panel here. Unfortunately, the examples are not named on this old handmade plaque. Nevertheless, the blade profile may once have been in the Moro repertoire of weapons or general purpose blades, as your example suggests. Heavy, forward weighted blades are seen among other Filipino groups. I mentioned the Mandaya already, and I've seen similar Bagobo blades, but this type of blade is also common among the Ifugao groups and others in central and northern Luzon. I would not be surprised if there are Visayan and Bicolano versions also. The design seems well suited to heavy chopping. As to what this knife/sword might have been called, I don't know. I suspect it may have been made in Zamboanga.

24th August 2023, 10:27 PM	#22
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Neat old barung, indeed! Dimensions? Tausug, 19th c. Nice scabbard with damaged tip; I'd believe that the thread covering it is a later addition. I don't think it places much weight on dating the other piece - apparently a good ol' collection though. Regards, Kai

25th August 2023, 05:08 AM	#24
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	The barong blade is 17" long and 2 5/8" at its widest. Even though the handle wasn't covered in cosmoline, it was dirty and I'm sure some of it rubbed on, so the bone inserts certainly could have been stained by it. Thanks for the additional information.