Pirate swords and weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Mark!! and again well said on the notes on the integrity of Mr. Clifford's achievements and work.
Someone of his stature and reputation is always going to face controversy, and as noted, the notorious Captain Kidd is almost ironically another case of apparently undeserved controversy. But then, these larger than life figures often become such via that very influence, and frankly, makes them far more interesting, actually exciting !

Often I do wish I could write such a book, but honestly the thing in its hard to write in such an organized fashion of ongoing adventures in history and research as I am still headlong into them!! That is why my posts on these pages often are so 'Tolstoyean' (?) as it suffices for me for the time. In essence, I am writing a book, but here

Speaking of that , it seems that Barry, you have a flair for innovative and creative ideas, as you perfectly illustrate in your deductive explanation on the lead and silver corrosion theme. Wonderfully suggested, and mindful of the "Maltese Falcon" !!!! A perfect plot which reveals the drama and intrigue which actually did prevail in these fantastic times.

Thank you so much guys! and Gav and Rick for the great links and input!!

All the best,
Jim

[Rick]

We believe what we want to believe Jim .
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

[kronckew]

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kronckew

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

Hey, I've heard that one and that's what it actually costs here in Pyrat Country .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

We believe what we want to believe Jim .
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

Yup! Kinda my way of thinking.

[Rick]

Yes, Jim .
Private funding means Investors .

This reminds me of the fellow that swore there was a freighter full of Platinum sunk off the Cape during the War Years .
He was in the News this Spring .
Uh oh !
No Platinum ...
He had 'Private Funding' too .
I hear those individuals are not at all happy .

Rainmakers .

[Jim McDougall]

Very true Rick,
If you have followed the unbelievable 'Oak Island' uh, mysteries (?) this is a prime example of how far back these kinds of schemes go. Much of the now antiquated structuring and curious symbols etc are the remnants of earlier 'ventures' (usually syndicated) as well as Masonic oriented 'pranks', so the entire area is quite compromised as far as actual archaeological context.

I find the 'lead ballast' claims by this organization rather questionable, and am still looking into more on the nature of these ingots. While I know most people do indeed believe what they want, and especially if its in the news or on TV, I choose to research further without express conclusions either way.

The whole 'Captain Kidd' enterprise has really become a fascinating adventure in itself, and I have been reading through books on these 'ventures' which definitely do fall into the schemes category.

Mr. Clifford's outstanding work on so many historically key wrecks to me does put him in my opinion in a quite different league. Actually I was quite surprised that he was NOT considered a proper archaeologist!

Kronckew, that 'corny' joke was a hoot!! Reminds me of the goofy jokes my youngest grandson and I would come up with when he was about 8 (he's in the Marines now). They were true 'groaners' and we still laugh about 'em.


To DASHIELL VANDOO , another idea for your plausible plot.....what if while this merry band of pirates, as the were looting the Capt Kidd ship in preparation to be scuttled......perhaps one stashed the ingot of silver in the hold with intents to return to claim it later? much in line with your other scenario.
I' m not sure these guys had the means to fabricate fake lead bars in these places, nor the time or inclination to go to that trouble. Melting down lead for shot is a lot different that smelting an ingot of this size!

[Rick]

I expect it's a real lead bar .
Keep digging though .

These particular Investors won, as did Mel's .
Or did they ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America

[kronckew]

i was just reading recently about, i think it was denmark, sending all their gold reserves to canada via ship to keep it out of german hands in ww2. it was sunk by a u-boat.

lots of gold just waiting out there on the ol' briney wet thing.

[Jim McDougall]

As I mentioned, I always tend to search further, and in this case, as much as reluctant to say so, the true nature of this ingot is indeed suspect.

Kidd was in Isle St.Marie in 1699, at this point vs. his first 'pirate' prey, Capt Culliford. Unfortunately Kidds three ships were in terrible shape, the "Adventure Galley"; The Quedah Merchant (a captured Indian merchant vessel) and the "Rouparelle" (also captured, renamed 'November').
Many of Kidds men basically began to mutiny and go to the 'pirate' side, from there things get hazy.

Some say Culliford sank 'November' and left Kidd after stripping the other two ships of materials. What seems odd is that the 'treasure' held on the Quedah Merchant was not taken.
Kidd, took everything remaining off the now nearly sinking 'Adventure Galley' and put aboard the Quedah Merchant to head for New York.

It remains unclear which of the two ships, 'Rouparelle' or 'Adventure Galley' was burned or sunk, but whatever the case, they never left Isle St. Marie.

The 'treasure' on the Quedah Merchant consisted of silver and gold, presumably of both bullion and coin, and some rich textiles, but these were of Indian extraction, so presumably any bullion would most likely have been East India Company.

Which begs the question, 'why would an abnormally heavy silver ingot from Potosi (Bolivia) be found in what is believed to be the remains of the Kidd ship (either of the two abandoned there) . While Kidd may have had plunder from the Indian vessel(s), he had not accessed Spanish vessels (as far as I can find) in these waters .

In looking through information on Spanish silver ingot markings and detail from 17th century and Potosi (Bolivia) in particular, the markings on the Clifford ingot seem somewhat in the same fashion with initials, but lack the other key stamps and marks that characterize Potosi bars. Especially notable is the absence of the assayers 'bite', a scoop taken out by the assayer for testing (and exclusively a practice used at Potosi), with these findings always stamped in the bar along with date and bar number.

In looking into detail on the lead ballast ingots used in ships in these times, it does seem that they were made in these heavy weights ( large pigs) and some smaller, with the shape rather 'boat like' and often with convex facings. They often used stamped markings, initials and dates, but in far less frequency and without any of the often profuse detail of the silver bars of Spain or others presumably .

Also notable is the fact that this is a single bar, and ballast rubble seems to be in mounds in mass, especially in shallow water where a ship simply sank or foundered as careened....or again, was burned. In deep water wrecks the ballast or other contents may be strewn over an area as the ship comes apart and descends.

Interesting research, but would have preferred to find more positive evidence FOR Mr. Clifford's case. Still, I very much look forward to rebuttal's from his group, as mine is simply from various published material, and certainly limited in comparison to his experience and professional expertise.

I still wonder if Vandoo had something there with the silver coated lead ingot idea. Perhaps there was clandestine 'salting ' of these sites, as Mr Clifford has been searching them since 2000. In publications in 2002 and others, nothing had been found but a number of sundry items like bottles etc. which could be debris off any number of the many vessels in this burgeoning pirate haven of those times . As Rick mentioned, the Captain Kidd enterprise like many treasure hunt schemes knows few bounds, and it seems quite possible this might have been a snare placed in Mr. Cliffords corner, if the claims against this artifact/item are true.

[Rick]

1. Fifteen years is a long time for 'Private Funding' to wait for a return .

2. You need evidence besides magnetometer hits to convince our federal gov't. to allow you to hover over an area of ocean with 'mailboxes' to excavate sea bottom within one of our national parks . Hmmm, what to do about physical proof ??

3.The Whydah was well buried deep under a LOT of sand, but it WAS there, no argument . One good find sets you up pretty well in the 'Privately Funded' treasure hunting biz .
Believe what you want to believe Jim .

I don't go around making wild assertions; I will assert that the method used to gain Federal permitting for the Whydah Galley project was very 'Salty' .

[Jim McDougall]

Geez Rick!
I thought I was presenting some helpful data for readers who might be forming their own opinions. My note on the possibility of 'clandestine intervention' (= salting) was expressed simply as a personal suggestion which offered Mr. Clifford's case an optimistic option.
I thought that seemed clear, I don't necessarily 'believe' anything, as I am inclined to move either direction as more compelling or plausible data becomes available.

In my suggestion I was actually implying that this bar might have been the product of some earlier 'enterprise' in the ongoing Captain Kidd business from perhaps the 19th century ones such as "Oak Island"; the Palmer Brothers and the more recent ventures off the coast of Viet Nam....or of that ilk. I guess I feel compelled to see someone innocent until proven guilty .

I regret that you misunderstood, and I hope you did not get the impression I thought you were making 'wild assertions'. I hoped my notes here would be received as talking points for further discussion, rather than asserting my assumed beliefs.

In any case, you are an 'old salt' yourself and you know a heck of a lot more on these seagoing things than I, so I hope you see my drift. Just trying to fit pieces of a really old puzzle with a lot of them missing .

[Rick]

Then, I apologize to you Jim .
When you first joined in on this discussion you had a very high opinion of the person in question despite reading what I had to say .

I would have said a lot more and quite clearly were it not for concerns about legal ramifications .

Got my dander right up, you did .

[Jim McDougall]

Actually Rick, I still do have a very high opinion of him, and what I wrote were the results of my own impartial research, in which I spent quite a few hours and various approaches. I did not realize that what I wrote appeared gauged to what comments you made, although in discussion they were of course seemingly pertinent.

As I mentioned, my suggestions toward optimistic alternate possibilities were placed respectfully as just that , as prudent in circumstances such as these where sometimes disparity in opinions exists. I do indeed believe what I will, but realize others may as well. What I failed to remember is the often unfortunate result of expressing opinions here, and honestly thought what I had tendered was data from research and talking points.

Sorry about the dander a lot of it going around lately, and restraint is always good for many reasons, legality notwithstanding .

Thanks for the apology
Jim

[Rick]

Agree, and consider the subject dropped on my part .

[Rick]

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions .
My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Rick

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions .
My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .

Yes, I saw that too Rick. A real stretch IMHO. There's always a good excuse when the buried site comes up empty--"someone moved it." The guy from Minneapolis must make a good living off these treasure tales. He had an episode on Captain Kidd's treasure too. If there was anything to his treasure hunts we would have heard about it through regular news channels by now.

I wonder who payrolls this stuff--networks, advertisers.

Ian

[Jim McDougall]

I have to hand it to this guy, he is a master of 'lore', however at the expense of any true comprehension of real history. I admire the sense of 'magic' and excitement that he theatrically creates, and I admit that I very much miss sometimes. It was fun being a kid and the thrill of believing all of this stuff.

Even so, as when I started this thread, the study of the 'actual' pirates has proven fascinating, and these often bizarre machinations of the lore surrounding them in popular media today is more fun and laughable entertainment than anything else . The masses are easily reached today via many venues and thus these 'romps' or I should say 'tramplings' through history are big time money makers!! far more than any 'treasure' the pirates might have realized !

Naturally, this guy, and the producers certainly must be aware of the truth behind much of this lore, and probably deftly craft these 'adventures' around that material for the thrill of the less informed, and hysterical entertainment of those of us who actually study these topics.

The thoughts of Masonic connection to the pirates, and the skull and crossbones to piratic associations with the Templars are long standing prompts that have been heavily played in historical studies of pirates.
These are of course tenuous at best, but as always, tempting as we slip into the deeply held lore and magical mystery of piracy itself.

It is the writers who created these wonderful myths, from Washington Irving in 1824, who relied on the often sensationalized accounts of earlier writers. These then continued embellishment and expansion into the works of Poe and of course Stevenson.

The truth in the history of these often mysterious figures we collectively know as pirates is fascinating........but these TV and popular media versions are FUN and gotta admit, still love "Pirates of the Caribbean" !! Pretty much the same thing, but still addicting.

[kronckew]

didn't see that one. we had a 'bible' thingy here the other night supposed to be about a historian who 'found' the tower of babel. after wasting an hour, they conclude in the last few minutes that it is somewhere in so. west iraq, leaving the vaunted historian in the sinai looking at rock paintings of boats. no pics of the tower ruins, no expedition, no continued next week. ultimately unsatifying & a wasted hour i cannot relive. history makes good TV, but only when it is true or at least logical and well presented. someone once said about telling a story, start at the beginning, work thru to the end. then stop. when they stop before the end, that is annoying more than informative.

[Rick]

Ian, I think that History, Discovery and National Geographic fund most of these shows and provide a living for folks who wouldn't ordinarily make much dough .

Stuff like this sells adverts these days .

[M ELEY]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ology-science/

[Rick]

Now that is cool Mark !
As they said; usually the ship's bell is the major key to identification .
I'll bet the Mayor (an old classmate of mine) is real happy; a great tourist draw .
Doesn't seem there was very much gold found though; too bad .

[M ELEY]

Yes, an amazing find and as you noted, a great tourist draw. Living here in NC, piracy has always been a popular subject! The QAR became stuck on the shoals and Blackbeard moved all of the gold to his other ship ( ), burning this sloop to the waterline. At least a lot of interesting artifacts have come out of the wreck, including a tin syringe that probably held mercury to stave off syphilis (I won't go into horrid details about where the syringe was actually inserted!). This medical device was probably one of the artifacts handed over to Teach by the citizens of Charles Towne (Charleston,SC), when the sea dog held that settlement's harbor for ransom. The price, a chest full of pharmaceuticals to treat his sickened crew!

So you know the mayor, Rick?

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...including a tin syringe that probably held mercury to stave off syphilis (I won't go into horrid details about where the syringe was actually inserted!). ...

you know that thing in your head that keeps you from saying things?
mine is damaged

you'd be surprised what can fit. i had a bladder stone a few years ago, during the diganostic phase, they stick a telephone pole with a TV camera on the end up the same place and you can see the little devil on a tv screen. they squirt a local anesthetic in 1st tho. rather unusual sensation.

later, they use a slightly larger version when they crunch up the stone with a laser & yank the pieces out. thankfully under general anesthethesia so you don't know what horrors are going on down there, at least until you wake up & take your first red wee.

p.s. - the initial telephone pole was probably about the thickness of a pencil.

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed, it has been a most phenomenal realization in the most recent studies of these pirates, Blackbeard in particular, that the romanticized notions are very different than what they were really like.

Blackbeard, and probably a number of his crew were suffering from a number of STD's from their depredations, with Mr. Beard having been quite the womanizer possibly the most prevalent. His actions in these last days sought more than treasure..medicine.....and these horrendous tools and 'medicines' were his primary goal .

The Queen Annes Revenge as has been discussed has been mostly recognized as the wreck there in this location, however as always thee is some skepticism. In the early days after its discovery, I developed a line of communication with one of the divers, and of course my main objective was to find swords. It became a long standing gag between us that they kept finding cannon, but no swords. Of course, as the ship was abandoned, the prospects for anything as portable as a sword being found were negligible.
I do remember in later years, the 'politics' in the project became quite an issue, and my contact left the project.

It is always unfortunate that those of us who find vicarious adventure and historical excitement in these finds often end up disappointed as the usual traits of such things are tainted by commercialism and other circumstances which become necessary to support them. Still, we hold dearly to whatever measure of truth and reality can be preserved amidst the flotsam.

[M ELEY]

Amen, Jim, to controversy when it comes to wreck diving, claims on who owns it, authenticity. Glad to hear from you, Jim. You have a PM-

[kronckew]

Things come back to haunt you. My earlier page 1 post of a brass gripped pirate sword Jim thought might be Chinese is sort of confirmed. I'll post it in a new thread.

[David R]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

[werecow]

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Nice beladah belabang / parang nabur... I like this blade type. Reminds me of the Michiel de Ruyter nimcha.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

This was a fantastic thread!!! and so good to see again.
I had not recalled these parang nabur, which were of course quite probably used in 'the pirate round' as they were distinctly of cutlass type.

Can you say more on provenance and proven pirate assoc?

Well understand this being a prize in any collection!!