Pirate swords and weapons

[David R]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

[werecow]

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Nice beladah belabang / parang nabur... I like this blade type. Reminds me of the Michiel de Ruyter nimcha.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

This was a fantastic thread!!! and so good to see again.
I had not recalled these parang nabur, which were of course quite probably used in 'the pirate round' as they were distinctly of cutlass type.

Can you say more on provenance and proven pirate assoc?

Well understand this being a prize in any collection!!

[David]

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

[Jim McDougall]

The 'pirate' trope as applied to most edged weapons is of course typically apocryphal. Pirates were notoriously poor record keepers, and there were no 'regulation' weapons (just 'guidelines'

Naturally we need to also specify 'which' pirates we are considering for association with a certain weapon, or indeed 'form' of weapon. If they were 'Caribbean' region, it is most unlikely that these Asian weapons would be found, unless an anomaly brought in by someone as a souvenir or trophy from those Asian areas.

The woodcut illustrations well known in popular culture from the well known pirate tales are of course, not particularly likely to be accurate.
I am still fond of the popular pirate tales, but also of learning more on just how much is fact and how much is fiction.
The thing is, while we find that much of this lore is well embellished and not necessarily accurate, yet often we find fascinating elements which are sometimes even more exciting that the original story.

I agree, we should strive for references which support the use of a certain weapon or form in a 'pirate' context, while of course allowing ourselves the joy of thinking,
"maybe, just maybe, it might have been' .
In our speaking openly on the weapon, that is the manner we should view it, until hopefully one day, some obscure evidence is revealed that can empirically prove its provenance or use as surmised.
I have been fortunate to have had numbers of weapons for decades which I stubbornly held onto, in which that very thing occurred.

[kai]

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

Banjarmasin was a very busy trade port. In contrast to London, I'm not aware of any sponsorship for pirate-like activities by the local nobility...

Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.

The shape of the (by western standards short) blade and the adopted hand guard seem to fit the western notion of a pirate sword quite well and arguably should also work well in a melee on board of a ship. I haven't seen any historical account confirming "naval" use though.

Actually, I have to plead guilty myself: When my son was 4 or 5 years old and asked me to show a pirate sword, I pulled out my BB as the most suitable piece from my collection. A reproduction crafted from cardboard/tape/paint served its purpose perfectly...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

[QUOTE=kai
Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.[/QUOTE]

Like this.

[werecow]

Does the dragon blood come from dragons of the komodo variety (I know they're not from the same island, but still)?

[David R]

Originally Posted by werecow

Does the dragon blood come from dragons of the komodo variety (I know they're not from the same island, but still)?

Dragons blood is a resin used in paints and incense.

Ah well, so my sword turns out not to have the firm Pirate associations that I had read about elsewhere, we live and learn.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by David R

Dragons blood is a resin used in paints and incense.

Ah well, so my sword turns out not to have the firm Pirate associations that I had read about elsewhere, we live and learn.

None of our swords, not even the nimchas and cutlasses have any firm Pirate associations, unless they were taken by some 17th century captain in a battle with corsairs/pirates and have ironclad provenance to that effect.

Your beladah belabang is still an incredibly attractive, authentic sword that anyone here would love to have in the collection.

[kai]

Hello Rick,

Like this.

Apologies, forgot to answer your post #154.

Banjar blades often have dragon's blood decor on their fittings. Despite this, the vast majority of beladah belabang has unstained hilts. This may be partly explained by dragon's blood being most often applied to wooden fittings while most BB hilts are made from horn. Those BB with red-stained hilts usually are carved from wood with rings of dragon's blood added. On other Malay swords though, dragon's blood is rarely found on horn hilts, too.

The "regulation" BB got their name from the red-stained scabbard as in the attached pic.

Regards,
Kai

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
As we know, the beladah belabangs where manufactured (made) in South Borneo, the Bandjemasin area, to be specific in Negara. In Bandjermasin a lot of trade was going on! And there sure were some pirates trading or selling their trophies.

The attached photos give some food for thought:-)

One photo had been made in 1894/1895 by Schadee in the Landak area (NW Borneo). You see a bunch of lovely(?) people, with on the right a man wearing a Beladah Belabang. (Also notice the sundang on the left).

The other photo is a photo of the online database of the Scheepvaartmuseum, collectionnumber S.4543, pirate sword 1825-1850.
(mention the BB blade)...

There is also an old style Beladah Belabang in the Bronbeek collection known, captured from a pirate around 1850, during a raid against piracy in the seas south of the Philipines. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to place a photo here, which I have to ask first.

[Maurice]

Just had contact with John, and I'm allowed to place a photo from the pirate sword from the Bronbeek (in Arnhem) collection.
Captured from 'Alima Baba, uit het Soloschen archipel'.

[Jim McDougall]

These parang nabur/beladah belabang are incredibly beautiful and no doubt formidable sabers, and interesting to learn more on them (thanks to Kai i the note on the term meaning dragons blood) . While these seem to have originated (?) in Kalimantan in S. Borneo according to references, I cannot resist noting features associated with Yemen, and perhaps Arab traders which of course brought notable diffusion to and from their ports of call.

The widely flared blades resemble the sabers we have established as having come from Yemen, and the banding around the scabbards resembles saif coming from Yemen as well.

We know that there was both piracy and privateering in times of war with trjbes in these regions, so the potential for circulation of these swords into surrounding areas certainly existed.

We know that 'pirates' (the ones we are familiar with) were not just situated in the Caribbean, but many took the 'round' around the Cape of Good Hope, north past Mozambique to Madagascar, and Comoros Islands. From there they sought to prey on Indian vessels etc. and some apparently reached far into the island archipelagos of Malaysia and perhaps further.
'
We only really know of the pirates of the Golden Age in the works of "Capt. Johnson" but cannot know the full roster of active pirates who dd not make the 'press'. Like trade routes, the voyages of pirates 'networked' and via these same conduits, all manner of goods, and weapons etc. changed hands in various means of contact.

There is no way to assert with confidence that a certain weapon was used by 'pirates', though there are a number retrieved from wrecks with compelling evidence of belonging to a certain pirate...the 'Whydah' for example, to Sam Bellamy.

Though we cannot say for sure, we can presume, through deduction, that certain forms in use in a period, and reasonable record of who used them, that a weapon is 'OF THE TYPE'.

As long as we recognize that evidence is compelling and believe what we will without assertion, the inevitable contention has no legs, but what fun is there? Looking back at the 18 years of this thread, there have been many broadsides and dynamic discords.... I learned a lot!

Glad to see the thread again, I had forgotten! and again beautiful sabers!
The exhibition! Thank you Victrix!!!! I wish I could go, but maybe there will be a catalog?

[gp]

Let's not forget the Barbary pirates ( most of them European renegades in Algiers, Tunis and Sale):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast

and shorter home ( at least to Europe), the lads in France:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirkers
https://www.historiamag.com/dunkirke...ntury-pirates/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corsairs

interesting to see which weapons they used / had...
and if any forum member can advise any museums about them,
next to the St Malo one
https://traveltoeat.com/french-corsa...t-malo-france/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by gp

Let's not forget the Barbary pirates ( most of them European renegades in Algiers, Tunis and Sale):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast

and shorter home ( at least to Europe), the lads in France:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirkers
https://www.historiamag.com/dunkirke...ntury-pirates/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corsairs

interesting to see which weapons they used / had...
and if any forum member can advise any museums about them,
next to the St Malo one
https://traveltoeat.com/french-corsa...t-malo-france/

Absolutely not! and surprising that many of those Barbary pirates and others were Dutch (Europeans as you noted). Those guys got around.
Piracy was not a new phenomenon, and not isolated to any area, people, culture etc.
For most of our purposes things focus on the popularized versions of pirate which come of course from "Treasure Island" , Pyle and Wyeth illustrations which derived from Washington Irving, Sir Walter Scott, Poe et al.

In references I have found cases where a pirate referred to his cutlass as a 'shell', for the shell guards that were so often seen on European dusagge (also termed 'Sinclair sabers') in 17th c.

There are not 'pattern books' or 'regulation pirate swords', if course, and in the tag line from "Pirates of the Caribbean".....no 'rules', they're more guidelines'.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Maurice

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
.

the thought which comes to my mind and perhaps not so a strange thought...with regard to item 2:

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?
And concerning " sovereigns ": were they not "bought" and left in their positions and thus allowed the Dutch, English and French to do their (colonial) mischief...? Which was specially a proven policy in the Indonesian archipelago by the VOC and their successor...

Nevertheless then just like now there were and are indeed quite some pirates active...

Beautiful sword from Bronbeek; which museum is a place highlý to be recommended to visit, although the Dutch government wants to close this historical treasure sadly...
It has items and data from the earliest times till the end of WW II and Indonesia's independence.
Most interesting to see there all the diversity of data, items, pictures and cold weapons

https://www.bronbeek.nl/museum

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by gp

the thought which comes to my mind and perhaps not so a strange thought...with regard to item 2:

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?
And concerning " sovereigns ": were they not "bought" and left in their positions and thus allowed the Dutch, English and French to do their (colonial) mischief...? Which was specially a proven policy in the Indonesian archipelago by the VOC and their successor...

Ofcourse, I have also my own concerns and thoughts about the goals mentioned above. And I am glad I'm able to look at myself in the mirror every day because they were not the goals that I would have set.
And take into account, that these were different times, and also before the Dutch, English, French and Portugese arrived, there was a lot of missoury at places all over the world.
It wasn't always that civilized or better before the colonial oppressors arrived.
However, this is something that is a hot topic now everywhere, and I understand that. But to dispose of all museum pieces now or put them behind lock and key, I also disagree. We can use it as a learning opportunity, but when I watch the news every day, we haven't learned much yet as a world population.

Originally Posted by gp

Beautiful sword from Bronbeek; which museum is a place highlý to be recommended to visit, although the Dutch government wants to close this historical treasure sadly...

What is your source that Bronbeek is on the list of closing by the government?

Originally Posted by gp

It has items and data from the earliest times till the end of WW II and Indonesia's independence.
Most interesting to see there all the diversity of data, items, pictures and cold weapons

Unfortunately there is not enough time to update the database, as many objects has no photos placed.
Bronbeek is by far one of my favorite museum. And I feel privileged to have the opportunity to visit the museum often in the past, and mostly that I had been able to visit the Bronbeek depot several times, to do some study.
As a matter of fact I visited Bronbeek a couple of months ago. They have a wonderful exhibition, also to let the visitors overthink and feel about the injustice that happened there a long time ago.
And to keep in track of this thread, the Alima Baba pirate sword is to be seen now in their exhibition!

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by gp

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?

Hi,
Not a European only trade. The history of the world is full of one group or groups, race, ethnicity, religious leaning etc. etc. coercing another for personal advantage be it labour, land etc. The African slave trade was well established and run by Africans long before Europeans got involved as was conquest and land grabs for power and financial gain. The Vikings were consummate slavers but as they enslaved almost exclusively from Europe it gets little attention these days. Unfortunately slavery, land grabs etc. still go on and as far as I can see it will always be endemic to the human psyche.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/britis...laves_01.shtml

[Jim McDougall]

This has been a fascinating thread which was intended to study the weapons and historic factors involved in piracy, admittedly with focus on the popularized versions most of us are familiar with. It is great to see this active 18 years later, and while there were of course the usual scrapes typical of forum and social media discussions, the valuable and interesting content manages to prevail.

I personally hope that more objective input can continue here without the editorial, idealistic and socio-philosophical perspectives which are better placed in other venues. I think we can all agree that 'piracy', clouded with 'privateering' has always existed in some degree on the seas, in most nations, cultures and times. However my goal here was to recognize the objective characters of the weapons used by all parties engaged in these activities.

I think Captain Kidd was one of the best examples of the fine line between privateer and legitimate preying on vessels and the state of being a renegade outlaw, pirate. Clearly there was great opportunity which attracted many men from various nationalities and ethnic groups. While this of course brought certain influences and biases, for the most part, pirate factions were strongly democratic in a most ironic twist. That being said, IMO that is as much of the political critique as needed to examine the weapons used in these pirate situations of these earlier periods and modern 'piratical' or other circumstances are indeed more political and not useful.

Returning to the central topic.......just WHAT determines a weapon is indeed a bonified pirate weapon? and how do we determine just what forms were in fact in use, and in certain areas in the 'Golden Age' and post Golden Age into early 19th c.?

[M ELEY]

I'm glad to see this thread alive and well after all of these years! As a collector of all things maritime,pirate/privateer, I'm also excited to see that the Maritime Museum is having this display. Too bad I probably won't be able to attend in person- Still, the history of piracy, which covers so many nations and many centuries of time, remains a fascinating subject for many. Keep up the posts as I'm enjoying them greatly!