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#31 |
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Hello Marco ,
I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27. What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen. Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book. Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn! Regards, Kai |
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#32 | |
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From "Ilmu Keris" by S Lumintu 1994 |
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#33 | |
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This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong. I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well. Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is. ![]() |
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#34 | |
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#35 | |
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#36 |
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please, David can you show me how the keris is inserted in the gajaman?
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#37 | |
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Hello Marco,
No worries - we're pretty much all students here... ![]() Quote:
For example, all blades in Haryoguritno's book "Keris Jawa ..." are shown in standard orientation except for cengkrong/cundrik. Regards, Kai |
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#38 | |
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As Kai has repeated, the position of the hilt that you show is ONLY correct (at least according to this diagram) for cengkrong and cundrik. I personally do not believe that your blade is either one of those dhapurs, so your diagram does not apply to your keris. I am sorry that i do not have any better images at this moment to show you how my Kebo Giri fits into the wrongko, but i can assure you it is in the usual manner. You may be able to tell that from this over all image though. Again, i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this. |
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#39 | |
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#40 | |
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On a side note, a significant proportion of cengkrong/cundrik coming onto the market in western countries are missing scabbards for whatever reason (arguably, this is also true for antique keris in general and seemingly higher proportions of cengkrong/cundrik may only be a sampling artefact since they are not common). Also quite some seem to come out of western Java: I have no idea what customs regarding these specific dhapur apply for orang Sunda. Regards, Kai |
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#41 | |
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It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik. Regards, Kai |
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#42 |
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My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.
A similar practice also applied in Bali. By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong. Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar. Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant? Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance? |
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#43 | |
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#44 |
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yes, but from your last pic, it's no possible to understand the verse of the blade inside the sheath
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#45 |
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As you wish Marco.
But it does sometimes assist in understanding keris tradition if one attempts to understand the position of the keris within the society from which it comes, and that understanding must take account of time. |
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#46 |
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#47 |
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Marco, my own intuition comes from the society & culture in which I was raised, I live in Australia, my ancestors came from Ireland, Cornwall & Scotland, with one outsider from Spain or Portugal (he was a bit of a ring in).
But in order to understand Javanese intuition, or for that matter, the intuition of any society & culture other than our own, we do need to devote a large part of our time to the relevant study. This keris under discussion is a Javanese keris, in order to gain an understanding of this keris, should we try to apply a Javanese paradigm, or a paradigm that comes from a different culture & society? |
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#48 |
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sorry..."sure, intuitive and fast" ...to put a book on sale years ago beside of this kerisforum.. NO!
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#49 |
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Alan of course, certainly a Javanese paradigm! .. A paradigm from which I am far from and aware of it.... and I love listening to the Javanese when they teach me somethings about keris
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#50 |
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#51 |
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So it seems we are in agreement Marco, however, it is wise to be rather careful when selecting a teacher.
This applies to all disciplines, not only the matter of keris. Edit "discipline" in the sense of a branch of knowledge Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 29th March 2023 at 11:30 PM. Reason: clarification |
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#52 |
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Yes, i agree with you Alan about disciplines and wise
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#53 | |
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![]() I am not sure that i agree that i see cengkrong/cundrik as part of the Maheas family. As to the example you posted next, which i assume you posted to illustrate your point (?), it is a confusing one because it also present a kembang pogog on one side. And if i am not mistaken, both the hilt and the kembang pogog are oriented in the normal manner in the wrongko, not reversed. If you have any examples of how regular cengkrong/cundrik are oriented in their sheaths i would love to see them as i don't believe i have ever seen one with its sheath. |
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#54 | |
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I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees. ![]() |
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#55 | |
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#56 | |
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And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling? |
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#57 | |
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Maybe the given pictures of three from my keris are helpful! I feel the sarung for your keris is wrong, sorry. Regards, Detlef |
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#58 |
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Marco, in respect of your post #55.
Please see my post #42. If we accept that Javanese belief & tradition is correct, rather than the ideas of some craftsman, or salesman then this keris under discussion has been incorrectly mounted to the wrongko. In my post I have written "--- my understanding ---" that understanding was gained from several keris literate people in Solo whom I knew during the 1980's, all have now left us, and all these people were members of the hierarchy of the Karaton Surakarta Hardiningrat, equally, all these people were devout followers of Javanese tradition. This keris is most certainly unusual, it is a nice addition to a collection if for no other reason than that it demonstrates the erosion of cultural understanding over time, but it is incorrectly mounted. |
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#59 | |
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#60 |
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Marco, please see my post #23
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