Help with Keris ID?

Rick · 30th May 2005, 09:45 PM

Pamors really don't 'mean' anything they are more talismanic in nature ; some are for wealth , success in business , popularity , control over others , protection etc.

There is no doubt that is a Moro gunong hilt and a nicely figured one .

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 10:55 PM

Well everyone is giving you fairly correct info so i don't have much to add. This looks like an old Javanese keris with pretty good age to it. Unfortunately much of the ricikan (features) have been lost to erosion, probably from extensive washing.
Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows.

I agree with Rick that your pamor would have a specific "meaning" per se, but rather a more general nature.
Interesting mismatch of hilt and blade. I would suggest you get a "proper" hilt fot it, but then there seems to be some history working here, no matter how muddled, that should probably be preserved.

Spunjer · 30th May 2005, 11:03 PM

well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

Good point. Certainly someone had a sense of what they were doing here. Though it seems they used far too much pitch to attach the blade.

Bill · 31st May 2005, 01:39 AM

very interesting, 14" blade, "beak" instead of an elephant, the brass work on the ferrule is odd. the keris blade looks very old to me. wonder why the "spacer" between blade & ferrule, you would think the person that re-hilted it would have deepened the hole for the peksi, I would think if someone was going to use it for a weapon, they would have. if this keris did end up in Moroland, it might be Bugis, as the Moro were fond of the bigger keris they produced.

nechesh · 31st May 2005, 03:43 AM

Bill, i'm pretty sure this isn't a "beak" instead of an "elephant trunk", but a case which is very common where there "trunk" has eroded away. The blade doesn't look particularly Bugis to me, the blade is too narrow and the gonjo too long, but then you never know. I believe the "spacer" between the hilt and blade is overflowing pitch.

Alam Shah · 31st May 2005, 04:14 AM

The blade has 11 gentle luks, with pamor wos wutah or scattered rice variation.
Pamor wos wutah is believed to enhance the owner's material well being.

A proper washing in lime juice would bring back the visibility of the pamor pattern. However, with the hilt secured with thick pitch, it may be difficult to remove the hilt for a normal bath. Alternatively, it could be done with the hilt attached in a vertical position.

littledirtnap · 31st May 2005, 01:46 PM

Thank you all very much for this discussion!! I want to learn as much as possible, and this is the most info I've gotten on this particualr knife so far!
I'll be careful in cleaning it..I'm a little apprehensive of eroding it further..

tom hyle · 31st May 2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

....Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows......

I'm not sure I agree with me, either, especially if that is a leather spacer, which is an European custom. On the other hand, if it is just thick hard pitch resembling leather, as I can envision it doing, I still vote Moro mounting. In contrast to barongs or kris sundang, Moro gunongs often are rather thin-bladed, and though there are also thicker ones, I am not convinced that this relates directly to authenticity/intent to use/etc. So use of the relatively frail k(e)ris blade like this may not be inapropriate. I have seen also dagger sized Moro kris, of pretty Moro looking work etc. but have never read or heard much about them; just that I know there is a tradition of dagger sized kris in Moroland. The only other thing I'd like to add is that I think a deeper understanding of gunong and some pedangs is that they are lower-teir versions of k(e)ris; they could typically be made by any smith (kris and k(e)ris often had laws and traditions restricting this), carried by any person (ditto), used for any purpose (ditto), made without the rituals or complications (seperate gonga, okar) of kris/k(e)ris, and of simpler materials, but with much the same handling style.
So, very broadly it is a proper hilt, and for all that the cavity is likely much wider than the tang, and perhaps shorter (I don't think the handle was made for it, or it would fit all the way in; I think the assembly is after market for both parts), I don't think I'd rehilt it if it is solidly together, at least. Now, I'm back to look at the ferule, and see if I agree that there's something unusual about it; I don't remember anything....

30th May 2005, 09:45 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Pamors Pamors really don't 'mean' anything they are more talismanic in nature ; some are for wealth , success in business , popularity , control over others , protection etc. There is no doubt that is a Moro gunong hilt and a nicely figured one .

30th May 2005, 10:55 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well everyone is giving you fairly correct info so i don't have much to add. This looks like an old Javanese keris with pretty good age to it. Unfortunately much of the ricikan (features) have been lost to erosion, probably from extensive washing. Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows. I agree with Rick that your pamor would have a specific "meaning" per se, but rather a more general nature. Interesting mismatch of hilt and blade. I would suggest you get a "proper" hilt fot it, but then there seems to be some history working here, no matter how muddled, that should probably be preserved.

30th May 2005, 11:03 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

31st May 2005, 01:39 AM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	very interesting, 14" blade, "beak" instead of an elephant, the brass work on the ferrule is odd. the keris blade looks very old to me. wonder why the "spacer" between blade & ferrule, you would think the person that re-hilted it would have deepened the hole for the peksi, I would think if someone was going to use it for a weapon, they would have. if this keris did end up in Moroland, it might be Bugis, as the Moro were fond of the bigger keris they produced.

31st May 2005, 03:43 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Bill, i'm pretty sure this isn't a "beak" instead of an "elephant trunk", but a case which is very common where there "trunk" has eroded away. The blade doesn't look particularly Bugis to me, the blade is too narrow and the gonjo too long, but then you never know. I believe the "spacer" between the hilt and blade is overflowing pitch.

31st May 2005, 04:14 AM	#7
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The blade has 11 gentle luks, with pamor wos wutah or scattered rice variation. Pamor wos wutah is believed to enhance the owner's material well being. A proper washing in lime juice would bring back the visibility of the pamor pattern. However, with the hilt secured with thick pitch, it may be difficult to remove the hilt for a normal bath. Alternatively, it could be done with the hilt attached in a vertical position.

31st May 2005, 01:46 PM	#8
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Thank you all very much for this discussion!! I want to learn as much as possible, and this is the most info I've gotten on this particualr knife so far! I'll be careful in cleaning it..I'm a little apprehensive of eroding it further..