A MAMELUKE SABRE FOR COMENTS

fernando · 5th April 2010, 08:17 PM

Thank you so much for your extremely interesting coments, Gentlemen.
Manolo, the spine is flat. The only engraving i can see on it is a little efect on the forte section, more looking like a floral decor than a graphic mark ... unfortunately.
I have taken new pictures of the engravings, but the results were not such a success.
There are five decoration parts in both faces. One at the forte, partly hidden by the langets, composed of florals supported by semi circumferencial lines; next to it an isolated branch, followed by the main (martial) motif. The next is flower; finally a little narrow crosswise efect, of cursive type.
I still think this blade had (has) some dark finish to it, with the decoration in some whitish contrast.
I see Jim's point in that some of the martial efects in both faces may be lances ... eventualy with pennons. But aren't these, together with flags, drums and cannons, a mix that probably only pretend to be an allusion to the military theme in general?
Also i find well placed Richard's impression in that this must be a Solingen blade, as also accepted by Jim.
A private purchase, most certainly.
But then we have this riddle with the hilt; it does indeed lack the usual presumption of a sword to be used in parade or cerimonies by a General Officer. Also in Portugal these hilts were available for General officers, from which i have pictures of entire swords, as also loose hilt examples in one of my books.
It would then have probably belonged to a mid rank officer, definitely for use in combat. Also to consider that Generals had swords of plainer version to go on the field; would this be plausible?
Equally worthy of note is that Wellington, the person who highly influenced the fashion of Mameluke sabres in Europe, has been in Portugal between 1809 and 1814, in charge of the Anglo-Portuguese forces, during the Peninsular War.
I would also emphasize that the grip plates in these hilts are usualy held in place by the lanyard eyelet in the back end and their prolongation to beneath the upper langets in the front, the grip buttons being only for fantasy. In the case of this sword, not only the plates penetrate into the langets, as also the buttons are actual rather strong screws; even admiting that such screws were a later adiction ... still a symptom of this sword use in battle.
Once again thank you for your precious input. May i however, consider this an open thread, with a strong desire to soon find more about the identity of this sword.
Fernando

celtan · 5th April 2010, 09:35 PM

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

Ian Knight · 5th April 2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

Solingen I think.

Ian.

celtan · 6th April 2010, 12:09 AM

Hi Ian,

I have owned, and probably still have a couple, Klingenthal blades. Some were from the Coulaux brothers. They shared similar engravings in their spines. For private orders, the usual Klingenthal markers do not appear. As example, the Coulaux Freres mark would appear on the ricasso, yet heavy use often erases it.

Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

OTOH: There's the matter of a CW southern blade I own, which has a similar spine design, but which I haven't yet been able to pinpoint its provenance...

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Solingen I think.

Ian.

Richard · 9th April 2010, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Ian,

Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

Best

M

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Richard

celtan · 14th April 2010, 09:56 PM

Hi Richard,

I'm quite familiar with Klingenthal, merci beaucoup a Jean Binck.
But thanks for the refresher, anyway. : )
For some reason, I did not keep a good picture depot of my old blades, yet I found this one, clearly w the Coulaux inscription. The other one I had, I couldn't get a clear picture of the ricasso, the langet obscuring the name.

Best regards

M

the other, also Klingenthal (Vallee des lames : )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Richard

fernando · 15th April 2010, 09:53 PM

Olá Manuel,
The little floral on the spine of your blade does indeed looks the same as in mine.
However i tend to accept the context approached by Richard, when he says:

"Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813"

By the way, how did i not remember to consult Jean Binck?
As he told you something further to the blade decoration origin?
Like the origin of the sword as a whole?

Salud, viño y mujeres.

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2010, 09:36 PM

Outstanding Fernando, and I think your ideas are very plausible. It does seem that there would have most certainly been a distinct awareness of these stylish sabres by Portuguese officers. The style itself is quite simple in the ivory Ottoman style grips with sword knot eyelet, and simple crossguard. This being the case we can only rely on subtle nuances such as the quillon terminals or perhaps the profile of the grips to lend identification to us.

You are right that the lances in the background in the panoply of military symbolism were pretty much a standard feature, as by thier length this would serve well as an inclusive yet visible backdrop.

The adoption of these sabres by US lancer officers was certainly inline with the American affinity for French fashion in uniforms and weaponry, and as has been noted, the French had begun use of these right after the Egyptian campaigns. American contact with these sabres was also established with thier own contact with Mamluks during the wars with Barbary pirates in this same period.

The British adoption of these sabres was not officially noted until 1822 for lancer officers, and not until 1831 for general and staff officers, but as is often the case, the regulations followed already established presence of the swords. By this time, these were well embellished and intended for dress and levee wear. It seems as noted that this sabre, by its solid simplicity, is indeed a combat weapon, and it is well known that cavalry officers had plainer example swords intended for use in combat explicitly. The agreed observation that this is a Solingen product intended to respond to the popularity of this sabre's form for officers suggests it might have been acquired by one in a number of armies of the time.

All the best,
Jim

5th April 2010, 08:17 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your extremely interesting coments, Gentlemen. Manolo, the spine is flat. The only engraving i can see on it is a little efect on the forte section, more looking like a floral decor than a graphic mark ... unfortunately. I have taken new pictures of the engravings, but the results were not such a success. There are five decoration parts in both faces. One at the forte, partly hidden by the langets, composed of florals supported by semi circumferencial lines; next to it an isolated branch, followed by the main (martial) motif. The next is flower; finally a little narrow crosswise efect, of cursive type. I still think this blade had (has) some dark finish to it, with the decoration in some whitish contrast. I see Jim's point in that some of the martial efects in both faces may be lances ... eventualy with pennons. But aren't these, together with flags, drums and cannons, a mix that probably only pretend to be an allusion to the military theme in general? Also i find well placed Richard's impression in that this must be a Solingen blade, as also accepted by Jim. A private purchase, most certainly. But then we have this riddle with the hilt; it does indeed lack the usual presumption of a sword to be used in parade or cerimonies by a General Officer. Also in Portugal these hilts were available for General officers, from which i have pictures of entire swords, as also loose hilt examples in one of my books. It would then have probably belonged to a mid rank officer, definitely for use in combat. Also to consider that Generals had swords of plainer version to go on the field; would this be plausible? Equally worthy of note is that Wellington, the person who highly influenced the fashion of Mameluke sabres in Europe, has been in Portugal between 1809 and 1814, in charge of the Anglo-Portuguese forces, during the Peninsular War. I would also emphasize that the grip plates in these hilts are usualy held in place by the lanyard eyelet in the back end and their prolongation to beneath the upper langets in the front, the grip buttons being only for fantasy. In the case of this sword, not only the plates penetrate into the langets, as also the buttons are actual rather strong screws; even admiting that such screws were a later adiction ... still a symptom of this sword use in battle. Once again thank you for your precious input. May i however, consider this an open thread, with a strong desire to soon find more about the identity of this sword. Fernando Attached Images

5th April 2010, 09:35 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I believe its a Klingenthal blade. Last edited by celtan; 5th April 2010 at 09:50 PM.

15th April 2010, 09:53 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Olá Manuel, The little floral on the spine of your blade does indeed looks the same as in mine. However i tend to accept the context approached by Richard, when he says: "Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813" By the way, how did i not remember to consult Jean Binck? As he told you something further to the blade decoration origin? Like the origin of the sword as a whole? Salud, viño y mujeres. Fernando

5th April 2010, 09:36 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Outstanding Fernando, and I think your ideas are very plausible. It does seem that there would have most certainly been a distinct awareness of these stylish sabres by Portuguese officers. The style itself is quite simple in the ivory Ottoman style grips with sword knot eyelet, and simple crossguard. This being the case we can only rely on subtle nuances such as the quillon terminals or perhaps the profile of the grips to lend identification to us. You are right that the lances in the background in the panoply of military symbolism were pretty much a standard feature, as by thier length this would serve well as an inclusive yet visible backdrop. The adoption of these sabres by US lancer officers was certainly inline with the American affinity for French fashion in uniforms and weaponry, and as has been noted, the French had begun use of these right after the Egyptian campaigns. American contact with these sabres was also established with thier own contact with Mamluks during the wars with Barbary pirates in this same period. The British adoption of these sabres was not officially noted until 1822 for lancer officers, and not until 1831 for general and staff officers, but as is often the case, the regulations followed already established presence of the swords. By this time, these were well embellished and intended for dress and levee wear. It seems as noted that this sabre, by its solid simplicity, is indeed a combat weapon, and it is well known that cavalry officers had plainer example swords intended for use in combat explicitly. The agreed observation that this is a Solingen product intended to respond to the popularity of this sabre's form for officers suggests it might have been acquired by one in a number of armies of the time. All the best, Jim