Odd takouba for comment

Iain · 28th March 2010, 12:18 PM

Hi All,

I've lurked on these forums for a few years, but recently after a long hiatus in collecting have had the funds to obtain a few pieces, mostly takoubas and other African items that fall into the "not so expensive to acquire" category.

Currently I find myself in possession of something that doesn't go 'by the book,' so I turn to the experts.

I picked up this takouba the other week. It's rather an odd piece (at least in my limited experience) for a few reasons. First I have to say I sadly haven't handled it in person, I live in Europe but have kind relatives in the States who store my sharp and pointy stuff until I come pick it up every year or so. I do have pictures though...

More here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/iain.nor...eat=directlink

First thing that's odd, at least to me, is that the hilt is one solid piece. On other southern style takouba I've seen brass or bronze platting covering the entire hilt, usually in a pommel section, grip section and plates on the guard instead of leather, all joined with welds. This, however looks like a one piece cast hilt - anyone run across anything similar before? The two holes in the handle look drilled, I'm assuming someone did it to mount the sword at some point. It looks to be bronze, although brass is possible - but has a rather dark coppery patina which makes me think bronze.

The blade is a fairly typical takouba blade, three crude fullers, roughly struck half moon stamps, although it's very narrow across and quite dull. The edge shows definite signs of filing or sharpening though, at some point in it's life. It also has the usual completely blunt area next to the guard for 4-5 inches and then the profile of the edge changes (although still dull). I'd hesitate to think that it's particularly old, although the level of pitting and patina seem consistent with first 1/4 of the 20th century. It also has a slight curve to it, like a saber, which you can see a bit on the last photo, it's very slight. The tip is a bit bent (I'll have to see if I can get a photo of it) and squarish.

Has anyone seen a similar piece before? Any comments? Part of me was afraid it was some bizarre tourist piece. But after seeing decent photos and having it waved around for me on skype video I'm inclined to think not. But I'm ready to learn from the many folks here more knowledgeable than myself.

I'd be happy to get more photos, but it might take a day or two as I'm not the one photographing.

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2010, 06:10 PM

The solid brass handle makes me wonder if this is a piece made in the Cameroon and the border land with Nigeria. A member "Martin Lubojacky" is much knowledgeable on this subject.

Iain · 28th March 2010, 06:20 PM

Hi Tim,

I also wondered if that might be the case. The takouba seems to have disseminated as a style pretty widely, being not just a Tuareg weapon. I wondered originally if it was a Fulani/Fulbe piece, but from what I've seen of at least modern pictures they seem to adhere pretty closely to the style and manufacture of Tuareg takouba.

Best,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2010, 07:25 PM

Hi Iain,
Welcome to the forum, and Im always really happy to see those of you who are always with us in the 'lurking' ranks join us, and to have the advantage of your contributions. This is a good example, a case where an interesting weapon exceeds the well known perameters.

While certainly no expert, I have dabbled a bit in the takouba subject, and from what I understand there are often superstitious elements involved with the use of metals among these people. Iron or steel is considered associated with death and dark forces, while brass and gold colored metal is a life force and positive. Obviously the use of copper, brass and these metals has been part of metalworking tradition in the western regions from time immemorial and thier skills might well have been employed to create an interpretative example of these key traditional swords.

The takouba form was well diffused through other tribal groups beyond the Tuareg tribes through the trans Saharan trade routes and nomadic interactions. The blades are often of considerable vintage and remounted many times into even present times. The use of cast brass is well known among the Mossi and other tribes in Mali and Burkino Faso and as noted, the Fulani, who extend into Guinea and other West African regions.

Often it would seem that these solid cast examples of traditional forms would serve as ceremonial or perhaps regalia type swords in localized tribal courts.
This would seem more likely for such a cast example than assuming it to be a tourist trade item, which seem characterized more in true to form mounts of the standard leather and brass embellished takouba types.

These are simply my observations based on the photo and description. Some closeups of elements would be helpful as well. I agree with Tim that Martin is one of a number here that are well established in the study of these swords, but I would not overlook the impressive field work done by Dr. Lee Jones, who wrote the article in our forum archives on these swords.

All very best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2010, 08:04 PM

From the photos the blade looks a good deal more heavy and less flexible? than most.

Martin Lubojacky · 28th March 2010, 08:19 PM

Welcome Iain
Hello Tim and Jim,
Thanks for confidence, but, frankly speaking, I did not reed as much subject publications as other forum members....I can just confirm it is not touristic piece (and not so odd). I don´t think it is comming from Mandara mountains, those handles differs a little bit. It could be either from Mali, Faso or Northern Nigeria (still some tradition in casting)... in any case my (but really - could be wrong) opinion is it is Hausa sword. I saw very similar handle in Nigeria, but made of aluminium (or maybe tin ? - in any case it was "relatively old" and faired by using). I feel ashamed, but I cannot say more.
Best regards,
Martin

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2010, 10:05 PM

I think martin may be right in that it is most probably Hausa even Fulani. The work on the sword handle is so very similar to this knife {sorry for the poor light pictures, will do more tomorrow if needed}. The thing is that the off set fuller can also be seen in the Cameroon.

Iain · 29th March 2010, 10:02 AM

I want to say that I'm grateful to all of you for the very helpful replies. I had a few more photos taken which you can view here (I won't post them all in the thread to save space):

http://picasaweb.google.com/iain.nor...at=directlink#

Including a few with a typical Tuareg takouba for comparison.

Jim,

Thank you for the warm welcome, I think I can safely say that after reading your posts for a few years, you have more than just "dabbled" with takouba. I think you have a very good point about the possibility of it being a ceremonial piece, but more on that below...

Martin,

Zdravím z Prahy. Je skvělé vědět, že jsou v zemi i další sběratelé! Thank you for the insights and the possible tribal attribution of Hausa. I think you may be correct. I found several pieces that appear to correspond in terms of the cast hilt work:

And the overall form:

http://www.shikra.de/Africa.Voodoo-C...1.html?imgID=0

Tim,

Yes, the blade is heavier than most and less flexible. I think the new pictures show that off a bit better. There might be some merit to Jim's suggestion that this could be ceremonial piece. However I am surprised in that case that it shows signs of having been sharpened at some point as I thought I had read, although I could well be wrong, that typically such pieces were left blunt. Could anyone direct me towards references or preferably pictures of other such ceremonial pieces?

The decorative form on the knife you posted looks to be a great match stylistically. I assume the knife is Hausa?

I think we can definitely agree now that it looks to be Hausa. I want to thank all of you again, my reference library is extremely thin so this forum is invaluable for researching new pieces.

As a side note, I wanted to ask if any of you own or have read "The African Knights: The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the Nineteenth Century" by Cairns? Is it worth purchasing? The description indicates it has a decent assortment of photos and drawings.

Best regards,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2010, 02:52 PM

Hi Iain,
Thank you for the kind words, and it is true I have been intrigued by the weapons of the Sahara and West Africa for some time. I think that you might find the paper "A Nigerian Panoply: Arms and Armour of the Northern Region" by A.D.H. Bivar (abstract can be found online) very helpful. With the cast hilt dagger you have shown there does seem to be compelling suggestion toward the Hausa attribution.

While often weapons may have been intended for ceremonial or perhaps court use, it does not mean that they remained so. If the weapon was removed from that context it may well have been sharpened for everyday wear. Takoubas and other edged weapons are very much regularly worn accoutrements into present times in varying degree in these regions.

I think if you do not already have the book, Christopher Spring's "African Arms and Armour" presents outstanding overview on these topics. The title you have noted I had not heard of, but sounds very promising. It seems most historic references to Africa lean toward either anthropological views or earlier periods. Thus, information on 19th century is always great as it gives good perspective on the period of most of the collected weapons.

"Tribes of the Sahara" by Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs (author of the benchmark article on the blades of the takoubas) is a great reference as well.

Thank you again for joining us, and for bringing this interesting example into discussion...as always, learning together!!!

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 30th March 2010, 09:36 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the article recommendation - unfortunately I can't seem to locate the extract of Nigerian Panoply online - it sounds fascinating however.

I've been looking for a reasonably priced copy of Spring's for sometime, unfortunately as it is out of print, the last quote I received from a book dealer here in Prague was somewhat astronomical.

Is the article on takouba blades you mentioned by Briggs part of the "Tribes of the Sahara" volume? My apologies for so many questions but obviously my library needs to grow!

However I did find an interesting, if slightly out of the period we are discussing, article available in it's entirety online on pre-Colonial Hausa states and warefare.

http://jambo.africa.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ki...ala%20ACHI.pdf

Best,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2010, 07:03 PM

Hi Iian,
Thank for the link to the article which looks most interesting. I will see if I can find the Nigerian article online again and see if I can post the link....if anyone out there has it already, please post OK.

On the Spring book, before spending a bunch on it, I should point out that the material toward takoubas and Fulani etc. is not comprehensive as this is primarily an overview, though extremely informative as a benchmark for further research.

The Briggs article (as cited in the article by Lee Jones on this site archives, just move down when opening the home page) . It is not in the Tribes of the Sahara volume, which is primarily text and not on weapons but more of an anthropological view.

Post a query on the swaps forum looking for Spring and perhaps somebody out there has an extra or knows where one is.

All best regards,
Jim

Dom · 2nd April 2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ispn

Has anyone seen a similar piece before? Any comments? Part of me was afraid it was some bizarre tourist piece.

similar yes ... nearly excepted that the hilt is wrapped with leather, but may be under it's brass as well as your's
beautiful "épée"

I bought it in Sahara in a place from where it's may be not her origine (In Amenas)
very smart the one tell me without doubt it's provenance (tribe)
as far as Tuaregs are nomads, moving since centuries between; Libya, Algeria, Mali, Niger
I do not have the knowledge to say more

one thing is sure, it's not a item for tourist ...

here some pictures for my takouba - XIX century

à +

Dom

Iain · 2nd April 2010, 09:22 PM

Hi Dom,

I have several like yours as well. Which I would term typical of what most people think of as takouba. (But yours is very nice

I like the pommel in particular).

Here's a couple of mine (on the left an older blade, with a nice, forged fuller, on the right a newer piece but still with a forged blade)

What was notable about the one I started the thread with was that it obviously wasn't intended to have the usual leather covering on the hilt and guard, or the plates of decorated brass which are also found on some takouba.

You also find on the ones like yours, or the couple I posted above, that the hilts are constructed in several pieces, round tube for the handle, several pieces for the guard and the pommel in at least two pieces. Often soldered together.

What was new to me about the one at the start of the thread was that it was solid cast as one piece.

I have another slightly strange takouba coming in the mail next week... Quite an ugly duckling in some ways.

But I have a weakness for the weird ones.

28th March 2010, 12:18 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Odd takouba for comment Hi All, I've lurked on these forums for a few years, but recently after a long hiatus in collecting have had the funds to obtain a few pieces, mostly takoubas and other African items that fall into the "not so expensive to acquire" category. Currently I find myself in possession of something that doesn't go 'by the book,' so I turn to the experts. I picked up this takouba the other week. It's rather an odd piece (at least in my limited experience) for a few reasons. First I have to say I sadly haven't handled it in person, I live in Europe but have kind relatives in the States who store my sharp and pointy stuff until I come pick it up every year or so. I do have pictures though... More here: http://picasaweb.google.com/iain.nor...eat=directlink First thing that's odd, at least to me, is that the hilt is one solid piece. On other southern style takouba I've seen brass or bronze platting covering the entire hilt, usually in a pommel section, grip section and plates on the guard instead of leather, all joined with welds. This, however looks like a one piece cast hilt - anyone run across anything similar before? The two holes in the handle look drilled, I'm assuming someone did it to mount the sword at some point. It looks to be bronze, although brass is possible - but has a rather dark coppery patina which makes me think bronze. The blade is a fairly typical takouba blade, three crude fullers, roughly struck half moon stamps, although it's very narrow across and quite dull. The edge shows definite signs of filing or sharpening though, at some point in it's life. It also has the usual completely blunt area next to the guard for 4-5 inches and then the profile of the edge changes (although still dull). I'd hesitate to think that it's particularly old, although the level of pitting and patina seem consistent with first 1/4 of the 20th century. It also has a slight curve to it, like a saber, which you can see a bit on the last photo, it's very slight. The tip is a bit bent (I'll have to see if I can get a photo of it) and squarish. Has anyone seen a similar piece before? Any comments? Part of me was afraid it was some bizarre tourist piece. But after seeing decent photos and having it waved around for me on skype video I'm inclined to think not. But I'm ready to learn from the many folks here more knowledgeable than myself. I'd be happy to get more photos, but it might take a day or two as I'm not the one photographing.

28th March 2010, 10:05 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think martin may be right in that it is most probably Hausa even Fulani. The work on the sword handle is so very similar to this knife {sorry for the poor light pictures, will do more tomorrow if needed}. The thing is that the off set fuller can also be seen in the Cameroon. Attached Images

28th March 2010, 06:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The solid brass handle makes me wonder if this is a piece made in the Cameroon and the border land with Nigeria. A member "Martin Lubojacky" is much knowledgeable on this subject.

28th March 2010, 06:20 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Tim, I also wondered if that might be the case. The takouba seems to have disseminated as a style pretty widely, being not just a Tuareg weapon. I wondered originally if it was a Fulani/Fulbe piece, but from what I've seen of at least modern pictures they seem to adhere pretty closely to the style and manufacture of Tuareg takouba. Best, Iain

28th March 2010, 07:25 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Iain, Welcome to the forum, and Im always really happy to see those of you who are always with us in the 'lurking' ranks join us, and to have the advantage of your contributions. This is a good example, a case where an interesting weapon exceeds the well known perameters. While certainly no expert, I have dabbled a bit in the takouba subject, and from what I understand there are often superstitious elements involved with the use of metals among these people. Iron or steel is considered associated with death and dark forces, while brass and gold colored metal is a life force and positive. Obviously the use of copper, brass and these metals has been part of metalworking tradition in the western regions from time immemorial and thier skills might well have been employed to create an interpretative example of these key traditional swords. The takouba form was well diffused through other tribal groups beyond the Tuareg tribes through the trans Saharan trade routes and nomadic interactions. The blades are often of considerable vintage and remounted many times into even present times. The use of cast brass is well known among the Mossi and other tribes in Mali and Burkino Faso and as noted, the Fulani, who extend into Guinea and other West African regions. Often it would seem that these solid cast examples of traditional forms would serve as ceremonial or perhaps regalia type swords in localized tribal courts. This would seem more likely for such a cast example than assuming it to be a tourist trade item, which seem characterized more in true to form mounts of the standard leather and brass embellished takouba types. These are simply my observations based on the photo and description. Some closeups of elements would be helpful as well. I agree with Tim that Martin is one of a number here that are well established in the study of these swords, but I would not overlook the impressive field work done by Dr. Lee Jones, who wrote the article in our forum archives on these swords. All very best regards, Jim

28th March 2010, 08:04 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	From the photos the blade looks a good deal more heavy and less flexible? than most.

28th March 2010, 08:19 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Welcome Iain Hello Tim and Jim, Thanks for confidence, but, frankly speaking, I did not reed as much subject publications as other forum members....I can just confirm it is not touristic piece (and not so odd). I don´t think it is comming from Mandara mountains, those handles differs a little bit. It could be either from Mali, Faso or Northern Nigeria (still some tradition in casting)... in any case my (but really - could be wrong) opinion is it is Hausa sword. I saw very similar handle in Nigeria, but made of aluminium (or maybe tin ? - in any case it was "relatively old" and faired by using). I feel ashamed, but I cannot say more. Best regards, Martin

29th March 2010, 10:02 AM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I want to say that I'm grateful to all of you for the very helpful replies. I had a few more photos taken which you can view here (I won't post them all in the thread to save space): http://picasaweb.google.com/iain.nor...at=directlink# Including a few with a typical Tuareg takouba for comparison. Jim, Thank you for the warm welcome, I think I can safely say that after reading your posts for a few years, you have more than just "dabbled" with takouba. I think you have a very good point about the possibility of it being a ceremonial piece, but more on that below... Martin, Zdravím z Prahy. Je skvělé vědět, že jsou v zemi i další sběratelé! Thank you for the insights and the possible tribal attribution of Hausa. I think you may be correct. I found several pieces that appear to correspond in terms of the cast hilt work: And the overall form: http://www.shikra.de/Africa.Voodoo-C...1.html?imgID=0 Tim, Yes, the blade is heavier than most and less flexible. I think the new pictures show that off a bit better. There might be some merit to Jim's suggestion that this could be ceremonial piece. However I am surprised in that case that it shows signs of having been sharpened at some point as I thought I had read, although I could well be wrong, that typically such pieces were left blunt. Could anyone direct me towards references or preferably pictures of other such ceremonial pieces? The decorative form on the knife you posted looks to be a great match stylistically. I assume the knife is Hausa? I think we can definitely agree now that it looks to be Hausa. I want to thank all of you again, my reference library is extremely thin so this forum is invaluable for researching new pieces. As a side note, I wanted to ask if any of you own or have read "The African Knights: The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the Nineteenth Century" by Cairns? Is it worth purchasing? The description indicates it has a decent assortment of photos and drawings. Best regards, Iain

29th March 2010, 02:52 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Iain, Thank you for the kind words, and it is true I have been intrigued by the weapons of the Sahara and West Africa for some time. I think that you might find the paper "A Nigerian Panoply: Arms and Armour of the Northern Region" by A.D.H. Bivar (abstract can be found online) very helpful. With the cast hilt dagger you have shown there does seem to be compelling suggestion toward the Hausa attribution. While often weapons may have been intended for ceremonial or perhaps court use, it does not mean that they remained so. If the weapon was removed from that context it may well have been sharpened for everyday wear. Takoubas and other edged weapons are very much regularly worn accoutrements into present times in varying degree in these regions. I think if you do not already have the book, Christopher Spring's "African Arms and Armour" presents outstanding overview on these topics. The title you have noted I had not heard of, but sounds very promising. It seems most historic references to Africa lean toward either anthropological views or earlier periods. Thus, information on 19th century is always great as it gives good perspective on the period of most of the collected weapons. "Tribes of the Sahara" by Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs (author of the benchmark article on the blades of the takoubas) is a great reference as well. Thank you again for joining us, and for bringing this interesting example into discussion...as always, learning together!!! All the best, Jim

30th March 2010, 09:36 AM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, Thanks for the article recommendation - unfortunately I can't seem to locate the extract of Nigerian Panoply online - it sounds fascinating however. I've been looking for a reasonably priced copy of Spring's for sometime, unfortunately as it is out of print, the last quote I received from a book dealer here in Prague was somewhat astronomical. Is the article on takouba blades you mentioned by Briggs part of the "Tribes of the Sahara" volume? My apologies for so many questions but obviously my library needs to grow! However I did find an interesting, if slightly out of the period we are discussing, article available in it's entirety online on pre-Colonial Hausa states and warefare. http://jambo.africa.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ki...ala%20ACHI.pdf Best, Iain

30th March 2010, 07:03 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Iian, Thank for the link to the article which looks most interesting. I will see if I can find the Nigerian article online again and see if I can post the link....if anyone out there has it already, please post OK. On the Spring book, before spending a bunch on it, I should point out that the material toward takoubas and Fulani etc. is not comprehensive as this is primarily an overview, though extremely informative as a benchmark for further research. The Briggs article (as cited in the article by Lee Jones on this site archives, just move down when opening the home page) . It is not in the Tribes of the Sahara volume, which is primarily text and not on weapons but more of an anthropological view. Post a query on the swaps forum looking for Spring and perhaps somebody out there has an extra or knows where one is. All best regards, Jim

2nd April 2010, 09:22 PM	#13
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Dom, I have several like yours as well. Which I would term typical of what most people think of as takouba. (But yours is very nice I like the pommel in particular). Here's a couple of mine (on the left an older blade, with a nice, forged fuller, on the right a newer piece but still with a forged blade) What was notable about the one I started the thread with was that it obviously wasn't intended to have the usual leather covering on the hilt and guard, or the plates of decorated brass which are also found on some takouba. You also find on the ones like yours, or the couple I posted above, that the hilts are constructed in several pieces, round tube for the handle, several pieces for the guard and the pommel in at least two pieces. Often soldered together. What was new to me about the one at the start of the thread was that it was solid cast as one piece. I have another slightly strange takouba coming in the mail next week... Quite an ugly duckling in some ways. But I have a weakness for the weird ones.