Point of Geographic Origin?

A. G. Maisey · 27th March 2010, 03:35 AM

Here are a couple of keris that are outside my area of knowledge.

Would anybody care to give an opinion on geographic point of origin?

hanggoye · 27th March 2010, 03:38 AM

B-i think keris pandai saras from kelantan..nice blade actually..

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 04:31 AM

A is a Sumatran blade, like those we commonly see from South Sumatra, Palembang area. The sheath and hilt does not look Palembang or even the typical "Straits Bugis" forms. could be from a more inland area, closer to Minang heartlands.

B's hilt and sheath looks Terengganu to me. The pendoko is unusual. Frankly, a little bit weird. The blade looks like N. Peninsula for sure, but the greneng and janggut form is something unfamiliar to me.

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 04:33 AM

The way the gandik is recessed into the form of the blade and the steep taper of the sor-soran area (to borrow Javanese terms) would suggest an area of origin North of the Malaysian borders.

A. G. Maisey · 28th March 2010, 01:49 AM

Thanks for your comments, Kai Wee.

Yes, I agree, a first impression of that straight blade would certainly be Palembang --- until you hold it in your hand, when you find that there is significant difference in percieved weight and balance (tanting) and differences in the material used from a Palembang blade.

Here are a couple more pics of the two keris in their wrongkos.

Does anybody else have an opinion they would like to share?

I've had these two keris for a while, and I do have a little bit of info on them, but as I've said, this is outside my area, and I really would appreciate the opinions of people who know more about keris of this style than I do.

hanggoye · 31st March 2010, 06:45 PM

I TRY TO SENT YOU PM, BUT IT SAID THAT YOUR INBOX IS FULL FROM RECEIVING ANY PM..CAN YOU PM ME YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS SO ITS CAN MAKE IT MORE EASIER TO GET TO YOU

REGARDS

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 02:17 AM

Sorry about that.

Now empty.

Jentayu · 1st April 2010, 04:45 PM

The 2nd keris having a peninsula blade called keris pandai mamat. Attached is sample picture of keris pandai mamat.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 12:52 AM

I posed this question a week ago, so I'm guessing that after a week it is unlikely that there will be much more comment.

I have owned these keris since 1953.

They came to me from my grandfather.

He acquired them in the 1920's from a friend of his who had been a merchant seaman in the period of about 1880 to 1910.

Below are photographs of the stickers glued to the scabbards by the merchant seaman who first collected them in the Malay Peninsula prior to 1910.

DAHenkel · 2nd April 2010, 07:27 AM

Alan plays gotcha!

I wasn't biting though

Both are very interesting keris neither of which fit the classic Pattani form.

The hilt of A does recall to mind hilts which I have seen in the collection of Nik Rashidin although horn is not very common as a hilt material in Pattani pieces or Peninsular pieces in general. They do happen though.

The blades, particularly that of B are also well within the realm of what is found in Pattani and Kelantan. In fact had I hazarded a guess I would have said B was a Kelantan blade but as I have already noted in my posts on Hanggoye's recent addition, the two run together in the middle.

There is a keris tajong in Nik Din's collection that is provenanced to the Raja of Jalor, a small fiefdom in Pattani which has a blade that is so totally a-typical of Northeastern Peninsular keris that most people there think it was a trade blade from Java. That said its so totally off Javanese standards and is materially much closer to Pattani that I reckon it is a Pattani blade made as a copy of a Javanese.

There's another keris type which everyone in Pattani and Kelantan tells me is a Keris Riau and is materially and stylistically approximate of what a Riau keris should look like. Yet every example of this type which I have seen came from Pattani and all have elements of Pattani style and material which indicate local manufacture. Again the logical guess is, a Pattani attempt to mimic a foreign style.

I've seen dozens of such examples in my time. Kai Wee has a keris sourced in Riau with the "classic" Terengganu pipit teleng hilt. I saw another on a Minang keris that was clearly a local attempt to copy the Terengganu form. It wasn't quite "right" in material and form but was clearly an attempt to copy. Tengku Ibrahim of Terengganu has a Jawa demam hilt in typical Terengganu form carved very intricately and convincingly with classic Palembang decorative carving. Another example of this type turned up on Oriental Arms not too long ago. Both had typical Terengganu blades and sheaths. A Terengganu carver copying Palembang motifs? A Palembang migrant working for a Terengganu clientel? Anybody's guess.

The point of all this is that we mustn't get so caught up in trying to classify kerises according to rigid formula. As I have pointed out in past years these keris were not produced in a bubble. The craftsmen (and their clients) were aware of the world outside, encountered that world on a daily basis and often drew inspiration from that world. Even today this process remains enshrined in the local traditions. As I pointed out above, folks in Kelantan and Pattani still call that Riau keris copy a "keris Riau" in this particular case they seem to have forgotten that it was made locally. I've also seen more than a few keris up there with Bugis style sheaths which the locals call "sampir Bugis". In this particular case they realise though that this is a local absorbtion of the Bugis style.

At the end of the day, there are archetypes but the craftsmen were and are stilll under no compunction to stick those local types. Understanding provenance is important but not the end all be all of keris collecting. Anyway, collecting these things wouldn't be half as fun if it was easy.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 09:51 AM

Dave, Alan was not playing "gotcha".

Alan was seeking an uninfluenced opinion on the possible source of these keris.

The labels say "Malay Peninsula", but the place name where they were collected is decidedly unclear. I've had it under magnification many times over many years, and I don't know the place name with any exactness yet.

Is it Patanei or Palanei ?

Is Patanei a valid or antiquated spelling for Pattani?

Is Palanei the name of a place?

I don't know. Do you or anybody else know?

As for classification of keris in areas outside Jawa and Bali, I also have seen a very great variety in blade forms and dress. Not so long ago I handled a keris that had been given by a village headman in Sumatra to an Australian soldier during WWII as a 'thank you" for saving his life. Apparently he was wearing it at the time, took it off and gave it to the soldier. This was somewhere on the north coast of Sumatra. It was a typical Bugis blade with a Palembang hilt and a reshaped Javanese gayaman wrongko.. If I'd seen it without the knowledge of where it came from I would have said it was a dealers composite.

Over the years I have come to the opinion that once we move away from the direct influence of a kraton, or other ruling entity, people in towns and villages all over the keris bearing areas, tended to make, wear and use keris according to what they were able to get hold of. I have several keris that have come from villages in the back country of Central Jawa that bear almost no recogniseable relationship to the keris styles that we associate with the Central Javanese centers of power.

27th March 2010, 03:35 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Point of Geographic Origin? Here are a couple of keris that are outside my area of knowledge. Would anybody care to give an opinion on geographic point of origin? Attached Images

28th March 2010, 01:49 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thanks for your comments, Kai Wee. Yes, I agree, a first impression of that straight blade would certainly be Palembang --- until you hold it in your hand, when you find that there is significant difference in percieved weight and balance (tanting) and differences in the material used from a Palembang blade. Here are a couple more pics of the two keris in their wrongkos. Does anybody else have an opinion they would like to share? I've had these two keris for a while, and I do have a little bit of info on them, but as I've said, this is outside my area, and I really would appreciate the opinions of people who know more about keris of this style than I do. Attached Images

1st April 2010, 04:45 PM	#8
Jentayu Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 61	Keris pandai mamat The 2nd keris having a peninsula blade called keris pandai mamat. Attached is sample picture of keris pandai mamat. Attached Images

2nd April 2010, 12:52 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I posed this question a week ago, so I'm guessing that after a week it is unlikely that there will be much more comment. I have owned these keris since 1953. They came to me from my grandfather. He acquired them in the 1920's from a friend of his who had been a merchant seaman in the period of about 1880 to 1910. Below are photographs of the stickers glued to the scabbards by the merchant seaman who first collected them in the Malay Peninsula prior to 1910. Attached Images

27th March 2010, 03:38 AM	#2
hanggoye Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 34	B-i think keris pandai saras from kelantan..nice blade actually..

27th March 2010, 04:31 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A is a Sumatran blade, like those we commonly see from South Sumatra, Palembang area. The sheath and hilt does not look Palembang or even the typical "Straits Bugis" forms. could be from a more inland area, closer to Minang heartlands. B's hilt and sheath looks Terengganu to me. The pendoko is unusual. Frankly, a little bit weird. The blade looks like N. Peninsula for sure, but the greneng and janggut form is something unfamiliar to me.

27th March 2010, 04:33 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The way the gandik is recessed into the form of the blade and the steep taper of the sor-soran area (to borrow Javanese terms) would suggest an area of origin North of the Malaysian borders.

31st March 2010, 06:45 PM	#6
hanggoye Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 34	I TRY TO SENT YOU PM, BUT IT SAID THAT YOUR INBOX IS FULL FROM RECEIVING ANY PM..CAN YOU PM ME YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS SO ITS CAN MAKE IT MORE EASIER TO GET TO YOU REGARDS

1st April 2010, 02:17 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Sorry about that. Now empty.

2nd April 2010, 07:27 AM	#10
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Alan plays gotcha! I wasn't biting though Both are very interesting keris neither of which fit the classic Pattani form. The hilt of A does recall to mind hilts which I have seen in the collection of Nik Rashidin although horn is not very common as a hilt material in Pattani pieces or Peninsular pieces in general. They do happen though. The blades, particularly that of B are also well within the realm of what is found in Pattani and Kelantan. In fact had I hazarded a guess I would have said B was a Kelantan blade but as I have already noted in my posts on Hanggoye's recent addition, the two run together in the middle. There is a keris tajong in Nik Din's collection that is provenanced to the Raja of Jalor, a small fiefdom in Pattani which has a blade that is so totally a-typical of Northeastern Peninsular keris that most people there think it was a trade blade from Java. That said its so totally off Javanese standards and is materially much closer to Pattani that I reckon it is a Pattani blade made as a copy of a Javanese. There's another keris type which everyone in Pattani and Kelantan tells me is a Keris Riau and is materially and stylistically approximate of what a Riau keris should look like. Yet every example of this type which I have seen came from Pattani and all have elements of Pattani style and material which indicate local manufacture. Again the logical guess is, a Pattani attempt to mimic a foreign style. I've seen dozens of such examples in my time. Kai Wee has a keris sourced in Riau with the "classic" Terengganu pipit teleng hilt. I saw another on a Minang keris that was clearly a local attempt to copy the Terengganu form. It wasn't quite "right" in material and form but was clearly an attempt to copy. Tengku Ibrahim of Terengganu has a Jawa demam hilt in typical Terengganu form carved very intricately and convincingly with classic Palembang decorative carving. Another example of this type turned up on Oriental Arms not too long ago. Both had typical Terengganu blades and sheaths. A Terengganu carver copying Palembang motifs? A Palembang migrant working for a Terengganu clientel? Anybody's guess. The point of all this is that we mustn't get so caught up in trying to classify kerises according to rigid formula. As I have pointed out in past years these keris were not produced in a bubble. The craftsmen (and their clients) were aware of the world outside, encountered that world on a daily basis and often drew inspiration from that world. Even today this process remains enshrined in the local traditions. As I pointed out above, folks in Kelantan and Pattani still call that Riau keris copy a "keris Riau" in this particular case they seem to have forgotten that it was made locally. I've also seen more than a few keris up there with Bugis style sheaths which the locals call "sampir Bugis". In this particular case they realise though that this is a local absorbtion of the Bugis style. At the end of the day, there are archetypes but the craftsmen were and are stilll under no compunction to stick those local types. Understanding provenance is important but not the end all be all of keris collecting. Anyway, collecting these things wouldn't be half as fun if it was easy.

2nd April 2010, 09:51 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Dave, Alan was not playing "gotcha". Alan was seeking an uninfluenced opinion on the possible source of these keris. The labels say "Malay Peninsula", but the place name where they were collected is decidedly unclear. I've had it under magnification many times over many years, and I don't know the place name with any exactness yet. Is it Patanei or Palanei ? Is Patanei a valid or antiquated spelling for Pattani? Is Palanei the name of a place? I don't know. Do you or anybody else know? As for classification of keris in areas outside Jawa and Bali, I also have seen a very great variety in blade forms and dress. Not so long ago I handled a keris that had been given by a village headman in Sumatra to an Australian soldier during WWII as a 'thank you" for saving his life. Apparently he was wearing it at the time, took it off and gave it to the soldier. This was somewhere on the north coast of Sumatra. It was a typical Bugis blade with a Palembang hilt and a reshaped Javanese gayaman wrongko.. If I'd seen it without the knowledge of where it came from I would have said it was a dealers composite. Over the years I have come to the opinion that once we move away from the direct influence of a kraton, or other ruling entity, people in towns and villages all over the keris bearing areas, tended to make, wear and use keris according to what they were able to get hold of. I have several keris that have come from villages in the back country of Central Jawa that bear almost no recogniseable relationship to the keris styles that we associate with the Central Javanese centers of power.