WHICH SUNDANG?

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, how long is the blade? and does the blade fit in nicely into the blade?
From my limited experience, this confusing mixture of keris or sundangs pamor, ricikan, wrangka and hilt can be attributed to Kalimantan/Borneo whereby there were a lot of cultural mixture among the locals, Jawanese, Buginese and Sumatrans....

It is 52 cm long (not including the square tang, or pesi), and the tang is 7 cm. I don't even bother the type of warangka and the hilt, because it could be changed at anytime. But anyway, thank you for the valuable information you gave...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Pak Ganja,
I am sorry, but I think this is a new sundang. The iron looks like it had been artificially aged. I had never seen a genuinely old sundang with this kind of iron. But this is just my blind guess. I hope i am wrong..

Just to add a bit, a few years back, i was shown by a relative their familiy's pusaka sundang. Everything looks Malay, but the greneng looks more towards Moro side. I guess, Malay sundang also uses Moro greneng..

Thank you Rasdan, for your comment. But still it is not convincing for me to regard this as newly made sundang and it was artificially aged. Because one of my 'first lesson in keris' couple years back, is "learning how to age a new keris, to look older" in order not to be cheated by my 'bakoel' (dealer) friends. Once you learn this lesson, you won't be easily cheated by nasty dealers...

From cleaning blades experience -- with coconut's husk, and then "mutih" (whiten) the blade with lime-juice and cream-soap or whatever -- you may learn too to differ which blade is newly made and which is old...

Anyway, thanks a lot for the comments...

GANJAWULUNG

rasdan · 18th March 2010, 08:10 AM

No problem Pak Ganja. It is just my guess. It is good to know that you had learnt the ageing technique. I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique.

Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done?

I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing.

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique.

Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done?

I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing.

The most common technique by my Maduran friends -- at least once or twice I practice just to know how -- is "kamalan" (technique of ageing new blade) with crushed red brick (for laying the keris in a certain place, like "blandongan"), wetted by not too-much watter and mixed with about a cup of crushed sulphur and three spoonful of salt... Submerge the new blade in the crushed-red-brick-sulphur-salt for (it depends the result) one night. Then clean with cream soap, and submerge in citroen liquid (I don't know the english word) to clean the blade. Then directly "mutih" (whithen) the blade... Before warangan.

But of course, not as simple as that. And not simple to explain. You must practice yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

It's certainly a keris sundang - I'm not convinced that it's antique though. My first thought was that this may have come from a pande Jawa, or probably be a Madurese creation.

The blade is not Moro (laminations and scroll work are off). Any pic of the blade tip?Kai

Dear Kai, later at home I will post the more close up. I am still in office...

GANJAWULUNG

rasdan · 18th March 2010, 09:38 AM

Thanks for the explanation Pak Ganja. Sounds like the procedure is pretty much the same. I think Citreon liquid is probably citric acid that comes in the form of granules that is diluted in water. I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2010, 10:15 AM

Here are a few questions.

1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?

2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?

3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng?

4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?

5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?

6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?

The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here.

Pity we don't have a time machine.

kai · 18th March 2010, 08:48 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

It's certainly a keris sundang - I'm not convinced that it's antique though. My first thought was that this may have come from a pande Jawa, or probably be a Madurese creation.

The blade is not Moro (laminations and scroll work are off). Any pic of the blade tip?

Quote:

From cleaning blades experience -- with coconut's husk, and then "mutih" (whiten) the blade with lime-juice and cream-soap or whatever -- you may learn too to differ which blade is newly made and which is old...

Has the blade been hardened? Could it have been forged from old steel?

AFAIK sundang blades were kept smooth (like keris Bali) in all ethnic groups with a keris sundang tradition. Possibly Rasdan was referring to the obviously Javanese surface treatment?

Quote:

I don't even bother the type of warangka and the hilt, because it could be changed at anytime.

I'm fairly sure the scabbard is a replacement done on Java/Madura. Can you narrow down it's age from craftmanship and material?

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 19th March 2010, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm fairly sure the scabbard is a replacement done on Java/Madura. Can you narrow down it's age from craftmanship and material?
Regards,
Kai

Me too, Kai, I'm pretty sure this scabbard is a replacement, maybe much later. The craftmanship, it is more central javanese scabbard than maduran. Not too old "timoho" (kleinhovia hospita) wood... You may see the bottom of the blade too (from the picture), that the form of "sirah cecak" (bottom face of the ganja) is not typically javanese. You may compare with any javanese "sirah cecak"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

Yes, totally agree Rasdan. You must extra carefully monitor the result of ageing, time to time, in order the blade not to be totally corroded by the "kamalan".

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are a few questions.
1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng?
4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here.
Pity we don't have a time machine.

Thanks for guiding this discussion in positive way, Alan. All I can answer is just speculation. I think this 'sundang' is mistreated in the past, maybe by the former owner or dealer. They treated the sundang as if they treated javanese blade -- they "mutih" the blade, and soaked the blade to warangan liquid, and made the blade corroded. Most sundang I've seen in Jawa was treated like this -- corroded by kamalan, before being soaked into warangan. The mistreatment also happen in almost every Sumatran keris in Jawa -- treated like javanese blades, and being soaked into warangan...

Alam Shah · 20th March 2010, 06:12 AM

Interesting discussion..

Pak Ganja, the blade looks like there's some age to it but not too old.. I like the upper half on the blade, but the base area.. are a lot off. It might be in a simpler form initially before its transformation. The 'greneng' area seems like drilled holes to me.. 10 number on the greneng area and 3 numbers on the 'kembang kacang' area to form the 'jenggot'.. the gandik area seems re-worked, (to me anyway).

Alan's questions and my answers..
1) what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
- no idea. Not from the Northern Malay states (Terengganu, Kelantan, Pattani), not Moro, not Sulu..

2) is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
-no, imho..

3) what method was used to produce the greneng?
- a power drill (?)..

4) does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
- not that I can see, (from the photos)..

5) where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
- hmmm.. not Moro, afaik.. for Malay sundangs, I've yet to see this form. Most Borneo sundangs, have broader width and it's blade texture are mostly similar to Moro's.. afaik.

6) why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
- good question.. fittings done in Indonesia(?).. handle mix-n-match(?)..

ganjawulung · 20th March 2010, 07:34 AM

Conclusion for the time being:
Commercially motivated sundang, forged of old steel, with ageing process... Made in Jawa? I will keep it, until I get a real sundang...

Thanks a lot to all, for the discussion and your sharing...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 20th March 2010, 10:29 AM

Pak Ganja, your conclusion may very well be correct, but lets not stop with this job of examination only half done.

Alam Shah has supplied some answers to my questions, so now I'd like to pose some more questions:-

1)--- when we see a very slim, whispy kembang kacang, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?
when we see a very steeply angled gandik, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?

2)--- it is impossible to tell if there is filler between the gonjo and the blade, however, there is a considerable gap between the gonjo and the blade and it is full of something; only a loupe and a needle will tell if it is filler or not.Additionally, there appears to be a gap around the pesi:- what is holding the ganja in place?

3)--- AlamShah seems to think that this could not be a Malay blade, so where else might it come from? Are we used to seeing such a gap between the tungkakan and the ganja in Moro keris?

4)--- Pak Ganja has suggested that this blade might have been made in Jawa, as a commnercial undertaking, which I assume means recently. OK--- where in Jawa? Jogja? Solo? or maybe somewhere a little further East, say the province of East Jawa?

5) --- the pamor motif is adeg siji, a single strip of pamor in the center of the blade; in keris from what geographic locality is this a reasonably common pamor?

ganjawulung · 20th March 2010, 03:22 PM

Dear Alan,
I've tried to watch this suspicious blade more carefully. And the whole impressions is that this blade doesn't seem completely new, although it is possible that the blade is forged from older metal material, and not todays material. That is why, my first impression to see this blade as old blade. The bending blade probably was quenched, from above the sor-soran until the tip of the blade -- it is the type of old technique of keris making. The Quenching technique ("disepuh"). (The upper blade become more corroded than the lower).

At a glance, the overall shape is as the shape of sundang. Type of "keris pedang", combination form of keris and pedang. The maker of the blade, was probably had intention to make sundang, either Melayu or Moro -- seen from the very "steeply angled gandhik". Of course, this is not the style of javanese keris making. Also the awkward form of "sirah cecak". More "sundang" style than javanese keris style...

But if you watch more carefully the details -- such as, the slim sekar kacang -- it remind me the style of older Maduran kerises (Sumolo?), with detail of "jenggot" above the sekar kacang...

Regarding the pamor of "adeg siji", or you probably regard as "sada sak ler", it could be more eastern Jawa, than central. The size of the blade, also more east jawa -- tends bigger than central jawa kerises. (Later I will post pictures for comparison, between older Maduran keris and this blade. Especially we may compare the forms of details in the sor-soran).

Commercially motivated keris? It is just IMHO...

This is just my "vague" response, as I am not an expert...

Thanks, a lot

GANJAWULUNG

18th March 2010, 08:10 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	No problem Pak Ganja. It is just my guess. It is good to know that you had learnt the ageing technique. I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique. Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done? I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 18th March 2010 at 08:21 AM.

18th March 2010, 10:15 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,063	Here are a few questions. 1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade? 2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core? 3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng? 4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade? 5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used? 6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle? The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here. Pity we don't have a time machine. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th March 2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason: unnecessary comment

20th March 2010, 06:12 AM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Interesting discussion.. Pak Ganja, the blade looks like there's some age to it but not too old.. I like the upper half on the blade, but the base area.. are a lot off. It might be in a simpler form initially before its transformation. The 'greneng' area seems like drilled holes to me.. 10 number on the greneng area and 3 numbers on the 'kembang kacang' area to form the 'jenggot'.. the gandik area seems re-worked, (to me anyway). Alan's questions and my answers.. 1) what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade? - no idea. Not from the Northern Malay states (Terengganu, Kelantan, Pattani), not Moro, not Sulu.. 2) is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core? -no, imho.. 3) what method was used to produce the greneng? - a power drill (?).. 4) does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade? - not that I can see, (from the photos).. 5) where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used? - hmmm.. not Moro, afaik.. for Malay sundangs, I've yet to see this form. Most Borneo sundangs, have broader width and it's blade texture are mostly similar to Moro's.. afaik. 6) why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle? - good question.. fittings done in Indonesia(?).. handle mix-n-match(?).. Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th March 2010 at 06:48 AM.

18th March 2010, 09:38 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Thanks for the explanation Pak Ganja. Sounds like the procedure is pretty much the same. I think Citreon liquid is probably citric acid that comes in the form of granules that is diluted in water. I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

20th March 2010, 07:34 AM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Conclusion for the time being: Commercially motivated sundang, forged of old steel, with ageing process... Made in Jawa? I will keep it, until I get a real sundang... Thanks a lot to all, for the discussion and your sharing... GANJAWULUNG

20th March 2010, 10:29 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,063	Pak Ganja, your conclusion may very well be correct, but lets not stop with this job of examination only half done. Alam Shah has supplied some answers to my questions, so now I'd like to pose some more questions:- 1)--- when we see a very slim, whispy kembang kacang, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with? when we see a very steeply angled gandik, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with? 2)--- it is impossible to tell if there is filler between the gonjo and the blade, however, there is a considerable gap between the gonjo and the blade and it is full of something; only a loupe and a needle will tell if it is filler or not.Additionally, there appears to be a gap around the pesi:- what is holding the ganja in place? 3)--- AlamShah seems to think that this could not be a Malay blade, so where else might it come from? Are we used to seeing such a gap between the tungkakan and the ganja in Moro keris? 4)--- Pak Ganja has suggested that this blade might have been made in Jawa, as a commnercial undertaking, which I assume means recently. OK--- where in Jawa? Jogja? Solo? or maybe somewhere a little further East, say the province of East Jawa? 5) --- the pamor motif is adeg siji, a single strip of pamor in the center of the blade; in keris from what geographic locality is this a reasonably common pamor?

20th March 2010, 03:22 PM	#11
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Alan, I've tried to watch this suspicious blade more carefully. And the whole impressions is that this blade doesn't seem completely new, although it is possible that the blade is forged from older metal material, and not todays material. That is why, my first impression to see this blade as old blade. The bending blade probably was quenched, from above the sor-soran until the tip of the blade -- it is the type of old technique of keris making. The Quenching technique ("disepuh"). (The upper blade become more corroded than the lower). At a glance, the overall shape is as the shape of sundang. Type of "keris pedang", combination form of keris and pedang. The maker of the blade, was probably had intention to make sundang, either Melayu or Moro -- seen from the very "steeply angled gandhik". Of course, this is not the style of javanese keris making. Also the awkward form of "sirah cecak". More "sundang" style than javanese keris style... But if you watch more carefully the details -- such as, the slim sekar kacang -- it remind me the style of older Maduran kerises (Sumolo?), with detail of "jenggot" above the sekar kacang... Regarding the pamor of "adeg siji", or you probably regard as "sada sak ler", it could be more eastern Jawa, than central. The size of the blade, also more east jawa -- tends bigger than central jawa kerises. (Later I will post pictures for comparison, between older Maduran keris and this blade. Especially we may compare the forms of details in the sor-soran). Commercially motivated keris? It is just IMHO... This is just my "vague" response, as I am not an expert... Thanks, a lot GANJAWULUNG