Karabela for comment

ariel · 15th March 2010, 11:37 PM

Nice to see old threads being resuscitated.
Somebody ( Alzheimer playing tricks again) on the Forum advanced another line: The Karabela handle was widespread all across the Ottoman sphere of influence, but pitifully sparse in Persia proper ( in fact, only a couple of pictures with Shahs sporting them) and never East of Persia or in Persia-influenced ( on-and -off) Daghestan. To attribute Karabela to Persia simply because Poland had good relations with Persia and Poles carried Karabelas is an argument of a dubious nature. Poland never shared a border with Iran, and their trade was limited to occasional batches of expensive souvenirs brought to Poland by Armenian traders. In contrast, Poles were in constant contact with the Hungarians, Tatars and Turks ( their borders spread down almost to the Black Sea).To amplify it even further, the ultimate Persian sword, Shamshir, was never popular in Poland. If we to believe the "Poland as the proving ground" theory, we need to ask ourselves: why did Poles choose an unpopular "Persian" sword karabela and ignored shamshir? My answer: because karabela did not come to them from Persia.
Interstingly, Cossacks, Poles close neighbors, carried a lot of shamshirs, but they raided Persia since 17th century ( Sten'ka Razin, for example).
That should be enough for anybody to conclude the origin. No?

ariel · 24th January 2018, 02:02 AM

Post resurrected again:-)))

Shah Abbas I captured Karbala around 1622, and that is when he could have seen the windows of the Imam Hussain shrine.

Here are 2 pictures by European artists: Albrecht Durer ( 1471-1528) and Pietro Befulco ( active 1471-1503).

Both show unmistakable karabela handles. Where from?

Ottomans invaded and occupied Balkans between 1352 ( Bulgaria) till 1526
(Hungary). Plenty of time for their weapons to become familiar to the Europeans.

Thus, karabela handles were known in Europe ~ 50-100 years before Shah Abbas I was even born ( 1571).

24th January 2018, 02:02 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Post resurrected again:-))) Shah Abbas I captured Karbala around 1622, and that is when he could have seen the windows of the Imam Hussain shrine. Here are 2 pictures by European artists: Albrecht Durer ( 1471-1528) and Pietro Befulco ( active 1471-1503). Both show unmistakable karabela handles. Where from? Ottomans invaded and occupied Balkans between 1352 ( Bulgaria) till 1526 (Hungary). Plenty of time for their weapons to become familiar to the Europeans. Thus, karabela handles were known in Europe ~ 50-100 years before Shah Abbas I was even born ( 1571). Attached Images

15th March 2010, 11:37 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nice to see old threads being resuscitated. Somebody ( Alzheimer playing tricks again) on the Forum advanced another line: The Karabela handle was widespread all across the Ottoman sphere of influence, but pitifully sparse in Persia proper ( in fact, only a couple of pictures with Shahs sporting them) and never East of Persia or in Persia-influenced ( on-and -off) Daghestan. To attribute Karabela to Persia simply because Poland had good relations with Persia and Poles carried Karabelas is an argument of a dubious nature. Poland never shared a border with Iran, and their trade was limited to occasional batches of expensive souvenirs brought to Poland by Armenian traders. In contrast, Poles were in constant contact with the Hungarians, Tatars and Turks ( their borders spread down almost to the Black Sea).To amplify it even further, the ultimate Persian sword, Shamshir, was never popular in Poland. If we to believe the "Poland as the proving ground" theory, we need to ask ourselves: why did Poles choose an unpopular "Persian" sword karabela and ignored shamshir? My answer: because karabela did not come to them from Persia. Interstingly, Cossacks, Poles close neighbors, carried a lot of shamshirs, but they raided Persia since 17th century ( Sten'ka Razin, for example). That should be enough for anybody to conclude the origin. No?