Indian Persian 18thc tulwar khanda sword?

Lew · 12th March 2010, 04:34 PM

What is this sword?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Rick · 12th March 2010, 04:48 PM

My tired old brain cells tell me that a piece like this has been discussed here .

Just don't ask me to find it .

CourseEight · 12th March 2010, 05:09 PM

Same sword:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=afghan

I vote Afghan, 19th Century. Tirri has very similar brass work on some stirrups, and the overall hilt shape is like one of those Afghan military sabers.

HUSAR · 15th March 2010, 11:45 AM

I think this is North Africa will try to post some scans of the swords from collection in Dresden

ALEX · 15th March 2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUSAR

I think this is North Africa will try to post some scans of the swords from collection in Dresden

I think it's a good quess, Husar. How about Morocco/Berber?

ariel · 15th March 2010, 12:19 PM

Well, we seem to be reviving the same old discussion with the same arguments and the same ideas ( Afghanistan, North Africa...).
I read the old threads and got nostalgic. So many interesting people left, so much passion gone, so much drivel of "critical thinking" no longer brightens the day...
Yes, the girls used to be prettier, and the steaks juicier, and the the ice cream cooler..

HUSAR · 15th March 2010, 06:49 PM

promised pictures

Emanuel · 17th March 2010, 05:46 PM

Hello,

I vote for hybrid takouba-nimcha design. I don't think it's as old as 19th century

The brass work brings to mind Touareg work - see attached Oriental-Arms pics.
If the blade didn't look so thick I'd have voted for a modified machete.

Emanuel

Atlantia · 17th March 2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hello,

I vote for hybrid takouba-nimcha design. I don't think it's as old as 19th century

The brass work brings to mind Touareg work - see attached Oriental-Arms pics.
If the blade didn't look so thick I'd have voted for a modified machete.

Emanuel

I totally agree with North African. The handle looks Moroccan.
I would date it to mid 19th though.
Altogether a rather nice and interesting piece, almost looks like it was made to lop heads or hands off.

tom hyle · 23rd March 2010, 05:22 AM

I'm thinking Indian or Afghan. Note the swelled tip slightly forward SE blade. Note the peacock. I think those are flowers. Also the hilt seems to be a fairly sturdy brass construction; probably filled with pitch rather than a wooden hilt covered with sheet brass as often seen on Berbese work. The finger "stall" may be a Turkish feature; in any event it spread throughout their empire. Blade is most like a khanda. Also note the curve of the knucklebow, which is more Indian than African. Cool sword. Any visible solder joints on the hilt?

katana · 23rd March 2010, 03:14 PM

I also believe North India/Afghanistan regions. Although the blade form is different, I am reminded of the Kopis.

Seems to have been used often....judging by the wear on the handle. The hilt is perfect for 'chopping' strikes or perhaps as a sacrificial short sword (Ram Dao).

Bearing in mind the Kopis spread across Northern India and Persia, it is not unreasonable to think variants may still exist in some areas. Below are some line drawings from "El Armamento Iberico" Fernando Quesada which helps to tie the hilt to the Kopis/Falcata. But could add weight to the arguement that North Africa could be a possible source !!!

The guard looks typical for Indian weapons as does much of the decoration, which seems to dismiss the African connection. Perhaps this was a commisioned piece made in Africa with design elements from India ???

What ever it is I like it.

Regards David

Rumpel · 23rd March 2010, 05:23 PM

Here's a left-field suggestion, utterly devoid of evidence: Northern Iraq?

The other thread stated that nimchas were known in Iraq; Kurmanji-speaking Northern Iraq is within the Persian cultural realm; the peacock is sacred to the local Yezidis; and they perform ritual ox sacrifice, in (perhaps) a similar manner to the Gurkhas, who use a kopis-like giant kukri for the purpose...

I can't prove any of this though

tom hyle · 24th March 2010, 07:56 AM

Also, a later thought; the long flat bolster at the base of the blade seems to be a hollow construction (almost ala habiki), whereas Tuareq etc. ones tend to be applied to the flat surfaces of the blade. Very suggestive illustrations there, and also raises the interesting question of how something so useful as the knucklebow has apparently risen, fallen, and returned at least once. Some ancient Latin gladiator weapons also had forms of basket hilts......

12th March 2010, 04:34 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Indian Persian 18thc tulwar khanda sword? What is this sword? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

15th March 2010, 06:49 PM	#7
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	promised pictures Attached Images

17th March 2010, 05:46 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	North-Africa / Sahel Hello, I vote for hybrid takouba-nimcha design. I don't think it's as old as 19th century The brass work brings to mind Touareg work - see attached Oriental-Arms pics. If the blade didn't look so thick I'd have voted for a modified machete. Emanuel Attached Images

23rd March 2010, 05:22 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	indian or Afghan I'm thinking Indian or Afghan. Note the swelled tip slightly forward SE blade. Note the peacock. I think those are flowers. Also the hilt seems to be a fairly sturdy brass construction; probably filled with pitch rather than a wooden hilt covered with sheet brass as often seen on Berbese work. The finger "stall" may be a Turkish feature; in any event it spread throughout their empire. Blade is most like a khanda. Also note the curve of the knucklebow, which is more Indian than African. Cool sword. Any visible solder joints on the hilt?

23rd March 2010, 03:14 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I also believe North India/Afghanistan regions. Although the blade form is different, I am reminded of the Kopis. Seems to have been used often....judging by the wear on the handle. The hilt is perfect for 'chopping' strikes or perhaps as a sacrificial short sword (Ram Dao). Bearing in mind the Kopis spread across Northern India and Persia, it is not unreasonable to think variants may still exist in some areas. Below are some line drawings from "El Armamento Iberico" Fernando Quesada which helps to tie the hilt to the Kopis/Falcata. But could add weight to the arguement that North Africa could be a possible source !!! The guard looks typical for Indian weapons as does much of the decoration, which seems to dismiss the African connection. Perhaps this was a commisioned piece made in Africa with design elements from India ??? What ever it is I like it. Regards David Attached Images

12th March 2010, 04:48 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	My tired old brain cells tell me that a piece like this has been discussed here . Just don't ask me to find it .

12th March 2010, 05:09 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Same sword: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=afghan I vote Afghan, 19th Century. Tirri has very similar brass work on some stirrups, and the overall hilt shape is like one of those Afghan military sabers.

15th March 2010, 11:45 AM	#4
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	I think this is North Africa will try to post some scans of the swords from collection in Dresden

15th March 2010, 12:19 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, we seem to be reviving the same old discussion with the same arguments and the same ideas ( Afghanistan, North Africa...). I read the old threads and got nostalgic. So many interesting people left, so much passion gone, so much drivel of "critical thinking" no longer brightens the day... Yes, the girls used to be prettier, and the steaks juicier, and the the ice cream cooler..

23rd March 2010, 05:23 PM	#12
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Here's a left-field suggestion, utterly devoid of evidence: Northern Iraq? The other thread stated that nimchas were known in Iraq; Kurmanji-speaking Northern Iraq is within the Persian cultural realm; the peacock is sacred to the local Yezidis; and they perform ritual ox sacrifice, in (perhaps) a similar manner to the Gurkhas, who use a kopis-like giant kukri for the purpose... I can't prove any of this though

24th March 2010, 07:56 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Also, a later thought; the long flat bolster at the base of the blade seems to be a hollow construction (almost ala habiki), whereas Tuareq etc. ones tend to be applied to the flat surfaces of the blade. Very suggestive illustrations there, and also raises the interesting question of how something so useful as the knucklebow has apparently risen, fallen, and returned at least once. Some ancient Latin gladiator weapons also had forms of basket hilts......