THE OLDEST KNOWN YATAGHAN!!!!

TVV · 11th March 2010, 07:57 PM

Emanuel,

I would not put too much importance into the bolster, as it is an element found on a whole bunch of knives from throughout the world. I have posted some examples of knives from the Balkans, found with Roman and Byzantine coins, but they generated zero interest.

That being said, I cannot claim with any certainty how the yataghan originated. What we have are 2 theories:

Theory 1: Alexander the Great and his troops introduced the form into Central Asia and Northern India, then it was adopted by the Turks, who brought it back to the Balkans in the 15th century - almost two milleniums later.

Theory 2: The form remained in existence in the Balkans, in utility knives, but was not used for weapons due to other forms being available and preferred, such as the sabre. After the Ottoman conquest and the imposed restrictions on the carrying of arms, long knives with this form made a return as a peasant's weapon, much like the bauerwehr in Central and Western Europe.

We also have some facts:
- The yataghan is always referred to as a knife.
- The earliest examples date from the time immediately after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.
- While there is plenty of evidence that the sabre was introduced everywhere, there were Turks during the middle ages, there are no archaeological finds or pictorial evidence on the existence of yataghans in Central Asia - from Persia to Turkestan and Northern India.

Based on all the above information, we can decide for ourselves individually which theory makes more sense.

Best regards,
Teodor

Emanuel · 8th November 2013, 04:12 PM

Hi folks,

Here are some more shots of yataghan made by Ahmed Tekelu, slightly different from the one posted by Ariel, dated ca.1525.

I'm struck by the Chinese-looking gold decoration.
Once again, the bolster construction screams "Nepalese khukri" in my eyes.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 8th November 2013, 04:18 PM

And another shot of Bayezid II's yataghan

Emanuel

Emanuel · 8th November 2013, 04:20 PM

I find the differences in decoration and construction method very interesting.

Note the differences at the base of the blade and the bolster.

spiral · 10th November 2013, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

.
Once again, the bolster construction screams "Nepalese khukri" in my eyes.
Emanuel

Ive seen similar bolster construction on knives & & kukri from India [NWF} & Afghanistan, but never Nepal.

But the fine tooling is another dimension!

Spiral

David R · 11th November 2013, 11:56 PM

The whole Kopis-machiera-yataghan question is one that has had me thinking for some time. Below are some of my collected pics from a variety of sources, alas I neglected to nail the references to them at the time. The first set were described as a Byzantine short sword I attach the label with the pics. I found them at an online museum called the "World Museum of Man" I will post the others if I can pin down their provenance

Emanuel · 12th November 2013, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Ive seen similar bolster construction on knives & & kukri from India [NWF} & Afghanistan, but never Nepal.

But the fine tooling is another dimension!

Spiral

Yes Spiral, I think the examples I have in mind were actually North Indian.

It also looks like the bolster assembly on the Suleiman yataghan consists of two different pieces fixed on either side of the blade, not one piece brazed over.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 8th July 2014, 09:44 PM

Hello,

Here is another yataghana ttributed to Suleiman II, the Magnificent, held at the Tokapi.

Emanuel

josh stout · 9th July 2014, 06:42 PM

The dragon and phoenix motif with stylized clouds is absolutely of Chinese origin. Very similar examples can be found in Persian carpets, and are usually attributed to the Mongols' habit of moving entire villages of artisans combined with trade along the Silk Road.

Given the places being discussed, Greece, North India, the Balkans, and Turkey, the Silk Road seems a possible method of cross pollination, but the Mongols seem a more significant source.

It is interesting to think of the great flows of ideas leading to these knives. Alexander headed East and the Mongols headed West along much of the same territory.

Sancar · 9th July 2014, 11:47 PM

"The dragon and phoenix motif with stylized clouds" actaually is a motif that can be found heavily in Ottoman art. It is a common motif especially in "Saz Üslubu" school of Ottoman art that was very popular in Kanuni Suleiman I's era, popularized by Ottoman painter "Şahkulu" in that time. This blade's decoration is a very famous and typical example of "Saz Üslubu".

These two yataghans of Kanuni Suleiman I are made by Ahmet Tekeli, the court jeweler.

8th November 2013, 04:12 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi folks, Here are some more shots of yataghan made by Ahmed Tekelu, slightly different from the one posted by Ariel, dated ca.1525. I'm struck by the Chinese-looking gold decoration. Once again, the bolster construction screams "Nepalese khukri" in my eyes. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 8th November 2013 at 09:49 PM.

8th November 2013, 04:18 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And another shot of Bayezid II's yataghan Emanuel Attached Images

11th November 2013, 11:56 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	The whole Kopis-machiera-yataghan question is one that has had me thinking for some time. Below are some of my collected pics from a variety of sources, alas I neglected to nail the references to them at the time. The first set were described as a Byzantine short sword I attach the label with the pics. I found them at an online museum called the "World Museum of Man" I will post the others if I can pin down their provenance Attached Images

8th July 2014, 09:44 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Here is another yataghana ttributed to Suleiman II, the Magnificent, held at the Tokapi. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 8th July 2014 at 09:57 PM.

9th July 2014, 11:47 PM	#10
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	"The dragon and phoenix motif with stylized clouds" actaually is a motif that can be found heavily in Ottoman art. It is a common motif especially in "Saz Üslubu" school of Ottoman art that was very popular in Kanuni Suleiman I's era, popularized by Ottoman painter "Şahkulu" in that time. This blade's decoration is a very famous and typical example of "Saz Üslubu". These two yataghans of Kanuni Suleiman I are made by Ahmet Tekeli, the court jeweler. Last edited by Sancar; 10th July 2014 at 10:31 PM.

11th March 2010, 07:57 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Emanuel, I would not put too much importance into the bolster, as it is an element found on a whole bunch of knives from throughout the world. I have posted some examples of knives from the Balkans, found with Roman and Byzantine coins, but they generated zero interest. That being said, I cannot claim with any certainty how the yataghan originated. What we have are 2 theories: Theory 1: Alexander the Great and his troops introduced the form into Central Asia and Northern India, then it was adopted by the Turks, who brought it back to the Balkans in the 15th century - almost two milleniums later. Theory 2: The form remained in existence in the Balkans, in utility knives, but was not used for weapons due to other forms being available and preferred, such as the sabre. After the Ottoman conquest and the imposed restrictions on the carrying of arms, long knives with this form made a return as a peasant's weapon, much like the bauerwehr in Central and Western Europe. We also have some facts: - The yataghan is always referred to as a knife. - The earliest examples date from the time immediately after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. - While there is plenty of evidence that the sabre was introduced everywhere, there were Turks during the middle ages, there are no archaeological finds or pictorial evidence on the existence of yataghans in Central Asia - from Persia to Turkestan and Northern India. Based on all the above information, we can decide for ourselves individually which theory makes more sense. Best regards, Teodor

8th November 2013, 04:20 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I find the differences in decoration and construction method very interesting. Note the differences at the base of the blade and the bolster.

9th July 2014, 06:42 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The dragon and phoenix motif with stylized clouds is absolutely of Chinese origin. Very similar examples can be found in Persian carpets, and are usually attributed to the Mongols' habit of moving entire villages of artisans combined with trade along the Silk Road. Given the places being discussed, Greece, North India, the Balkans, and Turkey, the Silk Road seems a possible method of cross pollination, but the Mongols seem a more significant source. It is interesting to think of the great flows of ideas leading to these knives. Alexander headed East and the Mongols headed West along much of the same territory.