THE OLDEST KNOWN YATAGHAN!!!!

[Emanuel]

Don't think I've seen this before. I was struck by how "Indian" this yataghan looks, particularly the floral decoration. Any chance of a close-up scan?
The bolster is practically of khukri type.

So eastern movement of the Macedonian/Greek kopis, eastern development, and a western return as yataghan.

Greek kopis/machaira -> Indian adoption, mixed with local experimentation -> sosoun pata and khukri -> yataghan.

Thoughts...

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Don't think I've seen this before. I was struck by how "Indian" this yataghan looks, particularly the floral decoration. Any chance of a close-up scan?
The bolster is practically of khukri type.

So eastern movement of the Macedonian/Greek kopis, eastern development, and a western return as yataghan.

Greek kopis/machaira -> Indian adoption, mixed with local experimentation -> sosoun pata and khukri -> yataghan.

Thoughts...

I respectfully disagree, and so does Dr. Elgood - there are no central Asian yataghans, and it seems the form simply never disappeared from the Balkans.

Regards,
Teodor

[Emanuel]

Hi Teodor,

I unfortunately don't have Elgood's newest book yet. Are you referring to the karakulak knives in the Balkans?

It's just that the yataghan posted here has features very similar to Indian weapons, and is actually fairly different from the karakulaks I've seen. This one seems to have a separate khukri-like bolster as opposed to the integral variety seen on karakulas.

Looking forward to getting Elgood's book.

All the best,
Emanuel

[TVV]

Emanuel,

I would not put too much importance into the bolster, as it is an element found on a whole bunch of knives from throughout the world. I have posted some examples of knives from the Balkans, found with Roman and Byzantine coins, but they generated zero interest.

That being said, I cannot claim with any certainty how the yataghan originated. What we have are 2 theories:

Theory 1: Alexander the Great and his troops introduced the form into Central Asia and Northern India, then it was adopted by the Turks, who brought it back to the Balkans in the 15th century - almost two milleniums later.

Theory 2: The form remained in existence in the Balkans, in utility knives, but was not used for weapons due to other forms being available and preferred, such as the sabre. After the Ottoman conquest and the imposed restrictions on the carrying of arms, long knives with this form made a return as a peasant's weapon, much like the bauerwehr in Central and Western Europe.

We also have some facts:
- The yataghan is always referred to as a knife.
- The earliest examples date from the time immediately after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.
- While there is plenty of evidence that the sabre was introduced everywhere, there were Turks during the middle ages, there are no archaeological finds or pictorial evidence on the existence of yataghans in Central Asia - from Persia to Turkestan and Northern India.

Based on all the above information, we can decide for ourselves individually which theory makes more sense.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Emanuel]

Hi folks,

Here are some more shots of yataghan made by Ahmed Tekelu, slightly different from the one posted by Ariel, dated ca.1525.

I'm struck by the Chinese-looking gold decoration.
Once again, the bolster construction screams "Nepalese khukri" in my eyes.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

And another shot of Bayezid II's yataghan

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

I find the differences in decoration and construction method very interesting.

Note the differences at the base of the blade and the bolster.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

.
Once again, the bolster construction screams "Nepalese khukri" in my eyes.
Emanuel

Ive seen similar bolster construction on knives & & kukri from India [NWF} & Afghanistan, but never Nepal.

But the fine tooling is another dimension!

Spiral

[David R]

The whole Kopis-machiera-yataghan question is one that has had me thinking for some time. Below are some of my collected pics from a variety of sources, alas I neglected to nail the references to them at the time. The first set were described as a Byzantine short sword I attach the label with the pics. I found them at an online museum called the "World Museum of Man" I will post the others if I can pin down their provenance

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Ive seen similar bolster construction on knives & & kukri from India [NWF} & Afghanistan, but never Nepal.

But the fine tooling is another dimension!

Spiral

Yes Spiral, I think the examples I have in mind were actually North Indian.

It also looks like the bolster assembly on the Suleiman yataghan consists of two different pieces fixed on either side of the blade, not one piece brazed over.

Emanuel