For those who love African swords

Lew · 26th February 2010, 01:58 PM

Gav

This is one that I have is a bit plainer than yours but with an old European blade.

Gavin Nugent · 26th February 2010, 11:27 PM

Another nice example Lew.

I like the broad blade too Lew, it remains in very good order. The blade on the piece I presented, if wasn't curved has the feel of a rapier, light, supple and lightning fast in the hand.

There is a lot to be learned about these swords, not yet covered in these pages and I look forward to learning more too. One question that comes to mind is the pommel...a pyramid where most are globes or do not exist?

I believe from conversations had with another in the European forum, the blade would be from from France, 1820-1860s. Wether it was a trade blade from this time and mounted then (I doubt), or wether once it had seen active military service was decommisioned and then made a trade blade agter the 1860s (sits better with me) I do not know.

I do know it is old and when I lifted it off the table after the photograph it certainly left the dust of Africa behind. Any ideas about yours Lew?

Gav

Lew · 27th February 2010, 12:25 AM

Gav

Mine looks like it came from a 1796 Light Cavalry Saber? Here is another one I traded some time ago with a slimmer blade like yours.

Gavin Nugent · 27th February 2010, 01:50 AM

Great Lew, another nice example.

One question that has come to mind whilst I have been image comparing is the hemispheres attached to these. Lew, I note on the example you presented to start there are many hemispeheres and they are found at the end of the suspension loop near the scabbard....I have witnessed this else where on other more plain examples but when you look at mine and the piece you traded they are found only as a pair and on their own loop and toggle together. Does anyone know what is signifies?

Gav

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2010, 03:21 AM

These are all outstanding examples of these swords attributed to the Mandinka (also Mandingo, Malinke) tribal groups of the Sahara, with Mali in particular.
Gav, this is one of the most beautifully accoutred examples I have seen, and it is my impression that this, along with many of these, are mounted with M1822 French cavalry sabre blades. These regions were of course long occupied by the French and by the end of the 19th century French protectorates.

In Mali, most significant is Timbuktu ( tin= well, buqtu=far away) which was for centuries actually a Saharan cultural center as well as a key hub for transSaharan trade routes. The merchants of this and other key trade locations of these trade networks were known as 'Dyoula' (Mande=merchant) and were undoubtedly of the upper social stature that might wear such embellished sabres as a mark of thier standing.

The profound presence of the French of course must have provided large numbers of surplus French cavalry blades in these centers, as well as the numbers of trade blades that prevailed via these trade routes. It has always been my personal opinion that these cylindrically themed guardless sabres probably derived from the Omani kattaras which had entered the Saharan trade sphere from the Zanzibar sultanate either via Red Sea or direct routes.
The dramatically embellished and festooned mounts no doubt emphasize the standing of the merchant or perhaps tribal figure, so although not specifically the weapon of a 'chieftain' , certainly that of a powerful individual.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2010, 05:37 PM

As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2010, 07:05 PM

I guess Africanized would be the P.C. description, because all the components are usually not entirely native with the blades typically foreign.
I had never really thought of that since trade blades have been a common denominator in virtually all colonized countries and cultures. I suppose that philosophically the African classification might be recouped if the weapon was produced in Africa by native craftsmen

even with foreign components.

In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like. While the Tuaregs of course are also of these regions, the takouba is characteristically with straight broadsword blade. The exception, which has been presented through field study by Lee Jones, are the curved blade examples which are termed 'aljuinar'. These seem to have utilized trade blades of somewhat similar origin as the curved blades on the Mandinka sabres, and I have seen German, even British, examples in addition to the French.

I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally.
I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations.
Perhaps our linguists might know of local terms for these swords, or if they might confirm the term noted.

Obviously there is not a great deal of information known on these swords and it would be great to see this develop as a resource reflecting the clearly established knowledge out there.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 28th February 2010, 12:14 AM

Lew, Jim, Tim and Martin, thanks all for contributing to the thread. Although there may be a lot of going over old ground, I think with the knowledge base there could be some "new" developments in relation to these swords and their symbolism and workmanship in historical context or at least finer detail on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

Thank you for sharing that blade Tim. Whilst I undersand your comment in a pure context, I can't say I agree with it in full. My thoughts would be if an African community in the day, traded for a blade where ever it was from in the world and wanted to dress it in their traditional manner and from the average man to the wealthiest man to use it in this manner, I would call it African, they have adopted it, the element of the blade does not remain seperate

So many weapons from so many periods across so many counrties have always adopted trade blades and called the sword their own, to list examples would fill this page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like.

I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally.
I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations.

All the best,
Jim

I too had never seen a local blade in dress until now thank you Tim.
Jim, outstanding point of reference with native tounges thank you!! I too have always seen aspects of Oman, particuarly in the hilt manufacturing methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Not as long or heavy as European bladed versions. Thin flexible and razor sharp.

Reading your description being thin flexible and razor sharp, the same can be said for the narrow French blades, they are like a rapier, although curved, are thin flexible and razor sharp.
The example you provided is interesting and thank you for putting forth a local blade. The dress it is found in however, to my eyes lacks patina and old world craftsmanship, it is a newer sword made in the style of old or from a different region? I'll get these blade measurements down for the next post to see how they compare to a local blade...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Gav, your Malinke sword is very nice and I think the flared end of the scabbard is longer (and nicer) than average. I am lucky owner of two such swords - one of them is furnished with relatively long, but tender locally made blade. Unfortunately, I could post the photo earliest in July.
Martin

Thank you Martin, I look forward to viewing yours when you can and hearing your input.

I too have a whole list of items for discussion and will get back here as soon as I can....I love a good discussion

Gav

26th February 2010, 01:58 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav This is one that I have is a bit plainer than yours but with an old European blade. Attached Images

26th February 2010, 11:27 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice Another nice example Lew. I like the broad blade too Lew, it remains in very good order. The blade on the piece I presented, if wasn't curved has the feel of a rapier, light, supple and lightning fast in the hand. There is a lot to be learned about these swords, not yet covered in these pages and I look forward to learning more too. One question that comes to mind is the pommel...a pyramid where most are globes or do not exist? I believe from conversations had with another in the European forum, the blade would be from from France, 1820-1860s. Wether it was a trade blade from this time and mounted then (I doubt), or wether once it had seen active military service was decommisioned and then made a trade blade agter the 1860s (sits better with me) I do not know. I do know it is old and when I lifted it off the table after the photograph it certainly left the dust of Africa behind. Any ideas about yours Lew? Gav

27th February 2010, 12:25 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav Mine looks like it came from a 1796 Light Cavalry Saber? Here is another one I traded some time ago with a slimmer blade like yours. Attached Images

27th February 2010, 01:50 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another nice example Great Lew, another nice example. One question that has come to mind whilst I have been image comparing is the hemispheres attached to these. Lew, I note on the example you presented to start there are many hemispeheres and they are found at the end of the suspension loop near the scabbard....I have witnessed this else where on other more plain examples but when you look at mine and the piece you traded they are found only as a pair and on their own loop and toggle together. Does anyone know what is signifies? Gav

27th February 2010, 03:21 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,654	These are all outstanding examples of these swords attributed to the Mandinka (also Mandingo, Malinke) tribal groups of the Sahara, with Mali in particular. Gav, this is one of the most beautifully accoutred examples I have seen, and it is my impression that this, along with many of these, are mounted with M1822 French cavalry sabre blades. These regions were of course long occupied by the French and by the end of the 19th century French protectorates. In Mali, most significant is Timbuktu ( tin= well, buqtu=far away) which was for centuries actually a Saharan cultural center as well as a key hub for transSaharan trade routes. The merchants of this and other key trade locations of these trade networks were known as 'Dyoula' (Mande=merchant) and were undoubtedly of the upper social stature that might wear such embellished sabres as a mark of thier standing. The profound presence of the French of course must have provided large numbers of surplus French cavalry blades in these centers, as well as the numbers of trade blades that prevailed via these trade routes. It has always been my personal opinion that these cylindrically themed guardless sabres probably derived from the Omani kattaras which had entered the Saharan trade sphere from the Zanzibar sultanate either via Red Sea or direct routes. The dramatically embellished and festooned mounts no doubt emphasize the standing of the merchant or perhaps tribal figure, so although not specifically the weapon of a 'chieftain' , certainly that of a powerful individual. All best regards, Jim

27th February 2010, 05:37 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,919	As somebody keen on African stuff. These are Africanized rather than African though I do have one with a native blade.

27th February 2010, 07:05 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,654	I guess Africanized would be the P.C. description, because all the components are usually not entirely native with the blades typically foreign. I had never really thought of that since trade blades have been a common denominator in virtually all colonized countries and cultures. I suppose that philosophically the African classification might be recouped if the weapon was produced in Africa by native craftsmen even with foreign components. In any case, I have honestly never seen one of these with a native made blade, and it would be great to see what the native blade would be like. While the Tuaregs of course are also of these regions, the takouba is characteristically with straight broadsword blade. The exception, which has been presented through field study by Lee Jones, are the curved blade examples which are termed 'aljuinar'. These seem to have utilized trade blades of somewhat similar origin as the curved blades on the Mandinka sabres, and I have seen German, even British, examples in addition to the French. I forgot to include previously that I once showed illustrations of one of these Mandinka sabres to a man who was of Fulani descent and from Guinea. He identified this sabre as termed a 'kota' if I recall correctly, claiming that the scabbard was termed 'holga' (= house 'for the sword'). While these distinctly formed sabres do not seem to ever be called by a specific term, only referred to as a 'Mandinka' et al , sword, I have often wondered what they were called locally. I realize I have brought this up quite a number of times over the years, much as I have noted the possible influence from the very trade oriented Omani kattara, with no further note or response. I just thought I would include it here again, as always hoping for other observations. Perhaps our linguists might know of local terms for these swords, or if they might confirm the term noted. Obviously there is not a great deal of information known on these swords and it would be great to see this develop as a resource reflecting the clearly established knowledge out there. All the best, Jim