Question about a briquet

M ELEY · 24th February 2010, 09:29 PM

Ouch! Well, I didn't have high hopes on the briquet to start with, BUT the iron hilted piece...now that one I truly believed to be naval. These have been listed as such in many of the Fagan, Frederick's Swords, etc, etc...
Live and learn, I guess. I'm not upset, though. As you say, Jim, the importance and fun is in the exploration. That being said, I'll probably move these through a friend of mine who collects that sort of thing. So, it's back to the search for the next mystery!

Oh, forgot to thank you, David, for tweeking the pics for me. It is appreciated!

celtan · 25th February 2010, 07:21 PM

I think your swords were the priced possession of someone, who liked them well enough as to bother polishing their brass to make them look "better".

As it is, all the swords of the 1816 type I have ever owned, have had a flat blade, never "wide" grooved. That by itself is interesting enough in yours.

FYE: Enclosed are a few related images from my menagerie. In fact, my sword in the Horstmann hanger thread is also a type of briquette, a combination of a brass cast hilt and steel blade.

M ELEY · 25th February 2010, 09:04 PM

Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.

celtan · 25th February 2010, 10:25 PM

Hi Eley,

I also like it, but I think its Swedish.

It's the only one I have seen with a curved blade,all the others were straight...I don't know if it's a regulation modification. Many of these were sent to Norway, and perhaps even modified there.

The Scandinavians tend to modify and reuse their blades, sometimes using them for longer than a century...

The last two are no longer in my hands. I also had 2 US Artillery M-1832s and a French M1831 with a rare "Greek" hilt. All with the typical solid brass hilt and steel blades.

Best!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.

M ELEY · 28th February 2010, 12:53 PM

www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=88275

www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=44410

OK, so I need some clarification on these mountaineer/artillery swords. Something is bugging me about their classification. Case in point, the above models. These two are listed as mountaineer, yet their pattern is clearly DOCUMENTED as naval in Boarders Away (pg 87) and Boarders Away 2 (pg 189), so what gives? These ribbed iron hilts remain elusive to their exac use, but the two above even have GR on their blades, which is exactly what is found on the m1803 cutlass? Didn't the m1898 Mountaineer models come much later? Did I make a mistake and truly pass up on a naval iron-hilt? (

)I know Fagan & Co and Frederick's Sword catalogs aren't well- researched volumes, but for many years, they have been listing swords like the eBay one and the above as naval? Can anyone show the Mountaineer sword as pictured in the mentioned book? Perhaps these sword-types were re-issued after the Age of Sail, just as the French M1801 had it's bowl removed and issued to ground troops later in the century? Comments please!

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2010, 07:22 PM

Hi Mark,
Absolutely well done there Holmes!!! Now we have a conundrum

First of all, case in point are the two catalog dealers noted. The Fagan catalogs I can recall from my early collecting days, and Fredericks I knew later. Obviously, these guys have been in business for many, many decades, so clearly they must have boundless knowledge on the countless weapons they have handled. However, everyone makes 'misteakes'

and many of these type catalogs by some dealers presented often carried adventurous and selectively worded descriptions, not always entirely accurate, which I always much enjoyed as I read them with much younger and romanticized eyes.
As I mentioned earlier, for me in those days, a briquet certainly must have been a 'pirate' weapon, and anything with curved heavy blade must have been a cutlass.........or a 'scimitar'!!!

Gilkerson is an outstanding reference, but in looking at the 'naval' issue item at far left (attached) notice that the knuckleguard is different than the 'P' guards of the artillery swords, the quillon extends out further, and most apparant is the stepped type pommel cap rather than the strap type seen on the artillery sabres. Clearly the M1804 cutlass with the double disc guards was well emplaced at the time, but I think he has taken a wide berth with suggesting that 'flat' hilt type 'cutlasses' were special made for ships with less storage. I would like to see more substantiation on that, and the single example seen appears 'one off' until I see others like it. It is interesting that the blade on this example in Gilkerson is fullered.

Getting to the examples you have noted :
#44410 may present that evidence as it does have the GR blade which corresponds to some variants of the M1804 with straight, flat blades of similar length about 29". It should be noted it has the langet, and the P type guard.........but the pommel is of the strap type of the mountain artillery type swords. In my opinion this is correctly identified by M Long as an artillery sword, but the fact that this seems to be an old naval blade, probably M1804 brings the question of why it is on this sword. It seems unusual that such an anomaly would be missed by this well experienced dealer, especially when that would profoundly enhance the value of this weapon.

#88275 (I do not see the GR here) but the hilt is similar, the blade is much shorter (19.5") and flat. The langets again are present and the hilt seems of artillery type. It is marked to Reeves & Co. which would be Charles Reeves of Birmingham who was in business in the latter 1820's producing military swords. In 1853 it was his innovative hilt patent for the M1853 cavalry sabre hilt. Charles III, the source of the 'GR' cypher on the cutlass blades died in 1820. Thus, I would presume this to be a much later example than the first.

These are both, in my opinion, correctly identified as artillery swords, but the first one with what seems to be a naval type blade certainly would present the plausiblity of its being a cutlass, coupled with the Gilkerson note.

It is important to note here that these cast iron ribbed grips with brass guards were used throughout the 19th century, as seen by the hospital corps swords of c.1861, though a guard bar has been added, note the langet is now gone. We note that the simple strap type attachment of the guard to the pommel prevails, the use of brass and the cheap cast iron grip as well. These type grips seen on the well documented M1804 cutlasses were used on other corps type swords as well as I believe customs swords and of course the artillery swords. The P type guard on the mountain artillery units are said to have already been in use with these ersatz units before they were formally organized in the 1850's.
The illustration of the example (with green backdrop) is my own, and you will see it is mounted with a M1796 cavalry blade, as were commonly in use throughout the Raj at the time. It has the familiar langet, suggesting that other similar hilts were in use by artillery units of the time.

It is my opinion, that the example you acquired is of later date than the 'cutlasses' suggested by Gilkerson, and most likely a mid to latter 19th century mountain artillery (as concurred in the Old Sword examples, the one example may well have used an old cutlass blade as these were available as surplus blades)...or perhaps other type...there were police sabres in issue in these times as well. Parker Field & Co. were purveyors of the police hangers and may well have used such hilts to mount blades.

To say again the old quote once given to me in trying to identify a Sikh sword, "...if it was used by a Sikh, then it is a Sikh sword". We already know that private purchase weapons were quite commonly used, so it is really hard to say what is naval and what isnt. For me, the allusions often presented in some sale catalogs and the suggestion with further detail by Gilkerson do not present enough evidence to presume that the swords classified as mountain artillery may actually have been cutlasses. It should be noted that these simple brass P guard hilts with cast ribbed grips were still in use by some Indian units as late as WWII.

I hope this might offer at least some worthwhile evidence to consider, but in any case was fun to review. Its been a long time since Ive looked at the old mountain artillery sabre, and seeing the photo was like seeing an old friend!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2010, 07:32 PM

Pictures didnt attach,
Here is my mountain artillery w/ M1796 blade and the page from Gilkerson on the left. Note the more straight 'D' guard stirrup and the stepped pommel.

24th February 2010, 09:29 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Ouch! Well, I didn't have high hopes on the briquet to start with, BUT the iron hilted piece...now that one I truly believed to be naval. These have been listed as such in many of the Fagan, Frederick's Swords, etc, etc... Live and learn, I guess. I'm not upset, though. As you say, Jim, the importance and fun is in the exploration. That being said, I'll probably move these through a friend of mine who collects that sort of thing. So, it's back to the search for the next mystery! Oh, forgot to thank you, David, for tweeking the pics for me. It is appreciated! Last edited by M ELEY; 25th February 2010 at 12:09 AM.

25th February 2010, 07:21 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I think your swords were the priced possession of someone, who liked them well enough as to bother polishing their brass to make them look "better". As it is, all the swords of the 1816 type I have ever owned, have had a flat blade, never "wide" grooved. That by itself is interesting enough in yours. FYE: Enclosed are a few related images from my menagerie. In fact, my sword in the Horstmann hanger thread is also a type of briquette, a combination of a brass cast hilt and steel blade. Last edited by celtan; 25th February 2010 at 07:57 PM.

28th February 2010, 12:53 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Clarification please... www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=88275 www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=44410 OK, so I need some clarification on these mountaineer/artillery swords. Something is bugging me about their classification. Case in point, the above models. These two are listed as mountaineer, yet their pattern is clearly DOCUMENTED as naval in Boarders Away (pg 87) and Boarders Away 2 (pg 189), so what gives? These ribbed iron hilts remain elusive to their exac use, but the two above even have GR on their blades, which is exactly what is found on the m1803 cutlass? Didn't the m1898 Mountaineer models come much later? Did I make a mistake and truly pass up on a naval iron-hilt? ( )I know Fagan & Co and Frederick's Sword catalogs aren't well- researched volumes, but for many years, they have been listing swords like the eBay one and the above as naval? Can anyone show the Mountaineer sword as pictured in the mentioned book? Perhaps these sword-types were re-issued after the Age of Sail, just as the French M1801 had it's bowl removed and issued to ground troops later in the century? Comments please!

28th February 2010, 07:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, Absolutely well done there Holmes!!! Now we have a conundrum First of all, case in point are the two catalog dealers noted. The Fagan catalogs I can recall from my early collecting days, and Fredericks I knew later. Obviously, these guys have been in business for many, many decades, so clearly they must have boundless knowledge on the countless weapons they have handled. However, everyone makes 'misteakes' and many of these type catalogs by some dealers presented often carried adventurous and selectively worded descriptions, not always entirely accurate, which I always much enjoyed as I read them with much younger and romanticized eyes. As I mentioned earlier, for me in those days, a briquet certainly must have been a 'pirate' weapon, and anything with curved heavy blade must have been a cutlass.........or a 'scimitar'!!! Gilkerson is an outstanding reference, but in looking at the 'naval' issue item at far left (attached) notice that the knuckleguard is different than the 'P' guards of the artillery swords, the quillon extends out further, and most apparant is the stepped type pommel cap rather than the strap type seen on the artillery sabres. Clearly the M1804 cutlass with the double disc guards was well emplaced at the time, but I think he has taken a wide berth with suggesting that 'flat' hilt type 'cutlasses' were special made for ships with less storage. I would like to see more substantiation on that, and the single example seen appears 'one off' until I see others like it. It is interesting that the blade on this example in Gilkerson is fullered. Getting to the examples you have noted : #44410 may present that evidence as it does have the GR blade which corresponds to some variants of the M1804 with straight, flat blades of similar length about 29". It should be noted it has the langet, and the P type guard.........but the pommel is of the strap type of the mountain artillery type swords. In my opinion this is correctly identified by M Long as an artillery sword, but the fact that this seems to be an old naval blade, probably M1804 brings the question of why it is on this sword. It seems unusual that such an anomaly would be missed by this well experienced dealer, especially when that would profoundly enhance the value of this weapon. #88275 (I do not see the GR here) but the hilt is similar, the blade is much shorter (19.5") and flat. The langets again are present and the hilt seems of artillery type. It is marked to Reeves & Co. which would be Charles Reeves of Birmingham who was in business in the latter 1820's producing military swords. In 1853 it was his innovative hilt patent for the M1853 cavalry sabre hilt. Charles III, the source of the 'GR' cypher on the cutlass blades died in 1820. Thus, I would presume this to be a much later example than the first. These are both, in my opinion, correctly identified as artillery swords, but the first one with what seems to be a naval type blade certainly would present the plausiblity of its being a cutlass, coupled with the Gilkerson note. It is important to note here that these cast iron ribbed grips with brass guards were used throughout the 19th century, as seen by the hospital corps swords of c.1861, though a guard bar has been added, note the langet is now gone. We note that the simple strap type attachment of the guard to the pommel prevails, the use of brass and the cheap cast iron grip as well. These type grips seen on the well documented M1804 cutlasses were used on other corps type swords as well as I believe customs swords and of course the artillery swords. The P type guard on the mountain artillery units are said to have already been in use with these ersatz units before they were formally organized in the 1850's. The illustration of the example (with green backdrop) is my own, and you will see it is mounted with a M1796 cavalry blade, as were commonly in use throughout the Raj at the time. It has the familiar langet, suggesting that other similar hilts were in use by artillery units of the time. It is my opinion, that the example you acquired is of later date than the 'cutlasses' suggested by Gilkerson, and most likely a mid to latter 19th century mountain artillery (as concurred in the Old Sword examples, the one example may well have used an old cutlass blade as these were available as surplus blades)...or perhaps other type...there were police sabres in issue in these times as well. Parker Field & Co. were purveyors of the police hangers and may well have used such hilts to mount blades. To say again the old quote once given to me in trying to identify a Sikh sword, "...if it was used by a Sikh, then it is a Sikh sword". We already know that private purchase weapons were quite commonly used, so it is really hard to say what is naval and what isnt. For me, the allusions often presented in some sale catalogs and the suggestion with further detail by Gilkerson do not present enough evidence to presume that the swords classified as mountain artillery may actually have been cutlasses. It should be noted that these simple brass P guard hilts with cast ribbed grips were still in use by some Indian units as late as WWII. I hope this might offer at least some worthwhile evidence to consider, but in any case was fun to review. Its been a long time since Ive looked at the old mountain artillery sabre, and seeing the photo was like seeing an old friend!! All the best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th February 2010 at 08:03 PM.

28th February 2010, 07:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Pictures didnt attach, Here is my mountain artillery w/ M1796 blade and the page from Gilkerson on the left. Note the more straight 'D' guard stirrup and the stepped pommel. Attached Images

25th February 2010, 09:04 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.