Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

Mark and Zorro (

er, Manolo!!!
OK OK no movie title jokes!!!

The espada ancha is indeed of probably Sonoran regions c.1830s, and as noted earlier, the rattler device seems quite associated to the obvious metaphor...I wish I could find the phrase on the blade of a dagger I believe citing the bite of the snake. Also it important to recall the rattlesnake as with the eagle being the emblem of the Mexican Republic. Like many of the catalog items, it is an outstanding example!!!!!

I too recall the discussion on the cuphilts, in which Manolo well pointed out their periods of use, and other notes on the development of these swords, but cant exactly place when it was.....Im the old one around here!!!

Manolo, thank you for remembering my quest for the quera!!! I did see this one and added it to my notes, I really appreciate you remembering. Actually that was the item I was focused on in my review of this catalog months ago.

All the best guys,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 07:44 AM

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Hi Mark,
Clearly the 'Sonoran' attribution is broadly placed, and is strictly my own opinion based on the years I have viewed many espada anchas. As with most ethnographic items, it is hard to place regional affinities, but for me, the rattlesnake metaphor comes most likely from the Mexican Republic period just after the 1821 independance from Spain. The standard form hilt and heavy forged blade resembles those of the period from most of the border areas and perhaps even as far as west Texas, of course exceeding my Sonoran suggestion.
As you know, there is no strict delineation on what swords may have gone to sea....though I think zweihanders and claymores were likely exempt !

This remains to me a very intriguing frontier Mexican sword probably with some very interesting possibilities, but I honestly doubt it saw the 'Main'.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 09:31 PM

I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo

) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.

12th February 2010, 07:44 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass- ). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me. Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear , but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more... Last edited by M ELEY; 12th February 2010 at 08:56 AM.

12th February 2010, 09:31 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo ) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.