Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 09:18 PM

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 01:50 AM

Likewise, Dmitry, Fair enough, and thank you for the itemized notes.

I will confess that my views on this catalog were based on recollections from looking through it last several months ago, and even then was based on a hurried examination viewing a specific item rather than overall. Clearly my assessment was a 'mistatement' , but was well intended, and decidedly not meant to deceive, rather based on my recalled perception of the catalog overall.
My point is, that I was not 'lying', but expessing my belief based on what I knew.

I believe the assessments in the catalog are based on information at hand and provided to the authors, a situation well known to occur from time to time in auctions, catalogs, books, sales etc.

The items you have mentioned I have examined in the entries, and I will concede in degree that some of the descriptions are easily contestible. The subject of rapiers and smallswords is actually a very esoteric topic, and is often well clouded by the consistant revival of classical and traditional forms of these type weapons of earlier periods during the 19th century. It is a problem which has plagued even experienced collectors and dealers often, and even the most influential museums have carried misidentified items or items that turn out to be reconserved contrary to original assessments.

The items in question for the most part seem to be courtsword type items which may well have been collected, as noted, in the New Mexico area, and likely were presumed to be of earlier vintage as found in that context. It is not unusual to find earlier style weapons being worn presumptiously as allusions to elegance in traditional form, especially in the 19th century and early 20th. We could probably do sociological dissertations on that!

The 'no comment' items are obviously described based on the inscriptions on them as they are clearly in period, and hands on examination would be needed to further assess.

The last, 'rapier relic' is admittedly a late 19th century fencing foil, but if it was indeed found in this context, an over optimistic assessment is quite probable if based on assumption of regional historic association. I recall once years ago when a sword was discovered at a site in New York and declared by an archaeologist to be an ancient Roman sword. It later was revealed that it was actually a US M1833 artillery officers sword, which was produced in 1830s for years later in neoclassic form to recall early Roman style shortswords.As found in this site, it was mistakenly assumed of this ancient type...even though the pommel carried the American eagle device.

The remainder of the archaeologists data concerning other materials and configurations seems to have been sound, however the identification of the sword was of course 'misstated' . Obviously an officer during the Civil War had lost his sword during military activity in training in the area.

I see your point, and hope you will see mine.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

Mark and Zorro (

er, Manolo!!!
OK OK no movie title jokes!!!

The espada ancha is indeed of probably Sonoran regions c.1830s, and as noted earlier, the rattler device seems quite associated to the obvious metaphor...I wish I could find the phrase on the blade of a dagger I believe citing the bite of the snake. Also it important to recall the rattlesnake as with the eagle being the emblem of the Mexican Republic. Like many of the catalog items, it is an outstanding example!!!!!

I too recall the discussion on the cuphilts, in which Manolo well pointed out their periods of use, and other notes on the development of these swords, but cant exactly place when it was.....Im the old one around here!!!

Manolo, thank you for remembering my quest for the quera!!! I did see this one and added it to my notes, I really appreciate you remembering. Actually that was the item I was focused on in my review of this catalog months ago.

All the best guys,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 07:44 AM

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Hi Mark,
Clearly the 'Sonoran' attribution is broadly placed, and is strictly my own opinion based on the years I have viewed many espada anchas. As with most ethnographic items, it is hard to place regional affinities, but for me, the rattlesnake metaphor comes most likely from the Mexican Republic period just after the 1821 independance from Spain. The standard form hilt and heavy forged blade resembles those of the period from most of the border areas and perhaps even as far as west Texas, of course exceeding my Sonoran suggestion.
As you know, there is no strict delineation on what swords may have gone to sea....though I think zweihanders and claymores were likely exempt !

This remains to me a very intriguing frontier Mexican sword probably with some very interesting possibilities, but I honestly doubt it saw the 'Main'.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 09:31 PM

I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo

) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.

11th February 2010, 09:18 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think... Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old- Last edited by M ELEY; 11th February 2010 at 09:29 PM.

12th February 2010, 01:50 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Likewise, Dmitry, Fair enough, and thank you for the itemized notes. I will confess that my views on this catalog were based on recollections from looking through it last several months ago, and even then was based on a hurried examination viewing a specific item rather than overall. Clearly my assessment was a 'mistatement' , but was well intended, and decidedly not meant to deceive, rather based on my recalled perception of the catalog overall. My point is, that I was not 'lying', but expessing my belief based on what I knew. I believe the assessments in the catalog are based on information at hand and provided to the authors, a situation well known to occur from time to time in auctions, catalogs, books, sales etc. The items you have mentioned I have examined in the entries, and I will concede in degree that some of the descriptions are easily contestible. The subject of rapiers and smallswords is actually a very esoteric topic, and is often well clouded by the consistant revival of classical and traditional forms of these type weapons of earlier periods during the 19th century. It is a problem which has plagued even experienced collectors and dealers often, and even the most influential museums have carried misidentified items or items that turn out to be reconserved contrary to original assessments. The items in question for the most part seem to be courtsword type items which may well have been collected, as noted, in the New Mexico area, and likely were presumed to be of earlier vintage as found in that context. It is not unusual to find earlier style weapons being worn presumptiously as allusions to elegance in traditional form, especially in the 19th century and early 20th. We could probably do sociological dissertations on that! The 'no comment' items are obviously described based on the inscriptions on them as they are clearly in period, and hands on examination would be needed to further assess. The last, 'rapier relic' is admittedly a late 19th century fencing foil, but if it was indeed found in this context, an over optimistic assessment is quite probable if based on assumption of regional historic association. I recall once years ago when a sword was discovered at a site in New York and declared by an archaeologist to be an ancient Roman sword. It later was revealed that it was actually a US M1833 artillery officers sword, which was produced in 1830s for years later in neoclassic form to recall early Roman style shortswords.As found in this site, it was mistakenly assumed of this ancient type...even though the pommel carried the American eagle device. The remainder of the archaeologists data concerning other materials and configurations seems to have been sound, however the identification of the sword was of course 'misstated' . Obviously an officer during the Civil War had lost his sword during military activity in training in the area. I see your point, and hope you will see mine. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th February 2010 at 02:09 AM.

12th February 2010, 07:44 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass- ). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me. Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear , but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more... Last edited by M ELEY; 12th February 2010 at 08:56 AM.

12th February 2010, 09:31 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo ) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.