Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

Atlantia · 9th February 2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

M ELEY · 10th February 2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

Gene, I like the way you think-

I will try to get the seller to send me another pic of the sword (no, not an eBay auction for a change!). Anyway, the guard made me feel that this piece would be more early 19th vs later Mexican piece. I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it. I'd like to think that this sword might by some stretch of the imagination have seen sea service, but the southwest elements are unmistakable. Then again, the seller is reporting the grip as horn and does resemble it's Euro hanger counterparts, so still too hard to say. Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone...

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 05:38 AM

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

Dmitry · 11th February 2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

celtan · 11th February 2010, 04:16 PM

OTOH, it shows an example of the rare leather armor / tunic used by Spanish warriors in Mexico. I belief Jim was rather interested in the subject.

I also have some french items obtained in Puebla, probably mementos of the French invasion in 1864.

BTW Eley, my apologies, I can't for the life of me remember discussing the cuphilts here before. Zorry!

Best

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

I would use equal caveat in choosing words, as 'misstatements' obviously suggests a statement or comment unintentionally used or of course ill chosen , while the term 'lie' is accusatory, inflammatory and unacceptably used here. Please use such comments privately if you must, and not openly on this forum.

I would point out that in many published materials, and as often found in many catalogs, there are publishing and unedited errors somewhat inevitable along with some 'misstatements', and I have discovered them in the works of even the most revered authors. I very much believe that an author deserves respect for the work they have faithfully sought to present accurately, and not to be callously judged for errors , omissions or misstatements that might exist.
In the very example cited, #173, for example, the description clearly refers to the plug bayonet below, while the sword itself is of course an espada ancha........whose description I have not yet located in the catalog.

I personally know this catalog very well, and find the items very accurately described, with the exception of the flaw noted. If you have issues with the descriptions of any items in particular, I would appreciate if you would address them specifically and offer your supported observations as a courteously presented rebuttal. I am certain that as a dealer, and with your descriptions of weapons, you would appreciate the same courtesy.

Jim

Dmitry · 11th February 2010, 07:57 PM

Fair enough.

Lot 148 - Spanish Officer's Court Sword, ca. mid 17th Century.

In reality, a Spanish ceremonial Espadin Isabelino, ca.1870s-1900s
--

Lot 187 - Spanish Officer's court sword ca. 17th century

An English style continental court sword. ca. early to mid-1800s.
--

Lot 190 - Two Spanish Rapiers, ca. 17th century

Ca.1730-1750 small-sword hilt mated with a rapier blade, imho, not too long ago. Grip newly wrapped.
--

Lot 248 ...no comment
--

Lot 249 ..ditto
--

Lot 252 - Rapier Relic, ca.late 17th century

That one takes the cake. It's a French-made fencing foil ca.1880s-1900s.

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 09:18 PM

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

celtan · 11th February 2010, 11:28 AM

Hi Eley,

Depends on what you mean by a cup-hilt. The real cuphilts saw the peak of their popularity in the 1650s, and kept on being used and made until the very early 18th C (~1710).

The smallsword began its ascendancy in the 1680s, and in fact some arrived to America in the 1670-80s. By 1710 they were already in ascendancy over the cuphilt.

Some cuphilts survived in the dry american south-west longer and were used until much later, but their use was vestigial, as the colonists would use anything they could get their hands on.

If you are including the bivalve-guards or clamshells, such as the spanish M1728 and the later M1788 and M1796-1800 as cuphilts, then indeed they saw use until the very early Napoleonic Wars, mainly in cavalry units. In fact, their hexagonal or "a tres mesas" blades kept being reused until even after the American Civil War.

OTOH, the spanish bivalve M1728, the boat-sail M1788 (a la vela) and the M1796-1800 dragoneras were not realy cup-hilts.

Best regards

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it.

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 01:02 PM

Hello Manolo and thanks for replying.
Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.

11th February 2010, 09:18 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think... Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old- Last edited by M ELEY; 11th February 2010 at 09:29 PM.

11th February 2010, 05:38 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77 http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria Again, love this catalog and stuff.

11th February 2010, 07:57 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Fair enough. Lot 148 - Spanish Officer's Court Sword, ca. mid 17th Century. In reality, a Spanish ceremonial Espadin Isabelino, ca.1870s-1900s -- Lot 187 - Spanish Officer's court sword ca. 17th century An English style continental court sword. ca. early to mid-1800s. -- Lot 190 - Two Spanish Rapiers, ca. 17th century Ca.1730-1750 small-sword hilt mated with a rapier blade, imho, not too long ago. Grip newly wrapped. -- Lot 248 ...no comment -- Lot 249 ..ditto -- Lot 252 - Rapier Relic, ca.late 17th century That one takes the cake. It's a French-made fencing foil ca.1880s-1900s.

11th February 2010, 01:02 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Manolo and thanks for replying. Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.