Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 12:52 AM

Well you've done it again Mark!!! You find the most intriguing stuff, and especially interesting items that seem to ever expand the envelope of things Spanish Colonial.
It would be good to see this overall, but the hilt detail is excellent.
At the outset, it does indeed seem Spanish colonial, with elements that allude to 18th century smallswords. The fixtures do seem Spanish, and most fascinating of all is the quillon terminal.....it appears remarkably like the rattles from the well known occupant of Mexican deserts..the rattlesnake!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 9th February 2010, 12:59 AM

Hello Jim! Good to hear from you. Sorry about the minimum pictures, but that was all I had immediate access to. Yes, that quillon does indeed look like a rattlesnake's tail! I hadn't thought of that! Do you think the grip on this one is probably horn? I don't have this item in hand, but am considering a purchase-

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 02:42 AM

Hi Mark,
I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it.
Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly.

All the best,
Jim

kisak · 9th February 2010, 02:25 PM

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

M ELEY · 9th February 2010, 04:55 PM

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

Atlantia · 10th February 2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

M ELEY · 10th February 2010, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

Gene, I like the way you think-

I will try to get the seller to send me another pic of the sword (no, not an eBay auction for a change!). Anyway, the guard made me feel that this piece would be more early 19th vs later Mexican piece. I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it. I'd like to think that this sword might by some stretch of the imagination have seen sea service, but the southwest elements are unmistakable. Then again, the seller is reporting the grip as horn and does resemble it's Euro hanger counterparts, so still too hard to say. Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone...

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

Hi Kisak,
Excellent assessment!!! With the presumed Spanish colonial character of this sword at this point, that is a perfect analogy, as the frontier espada anchas were essentially utilitarian much as the hirshfangers were intended. These frontier hangers actually are believed to have developed from European hunting hangers of the 17th century.
With the use of the hirschfangers or 'hunting swords' becoming more stylish and used as 'riding swords' in thier use, of course by the gentry and nobility, they became closely associated in some styling with courtly smallswords.....and this might well be perceived as a frontier 'hirschfanger' or hunting hanger of early Mexico.... or at least pending further identification.

All the best,
Jim

9th February 2010, 12:52 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,680	Well you've done it again Mark!!! You find the most intriguing stuff, and especially interesting items that seem to ever expand the envelope of things Spanish Colonial. It would be good to see this overall, but the hilt detail is excellent. At the outset, it does indeed seem Spanish colonial, with elements that allude to 18th century smallswords. The fixtures do seem Spanish, and most fascinating of all is the quillon terminal.....it appears remarkably like the rattles from the well known occupant of Mexican deserts..the rattlesnake! All the best, Jim

9th February 2010, 12:59 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Hello Jim! Good to hear from you. Sorry about the minimum pictures, but that was all I had immediate access to. Yes, that quillon does indeed look like a rattlesnake's tail! I hadn't thought of that! Do you think the grip on this one is probably horn? I don't have this item in hand, but am considering a purchase-

9th February 2010, 02:42 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,680	Hi Mark, I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it. Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly. All the best, Jim

9th February 2010, 02:25 PM	#4
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

9th February 2010, 04:55 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.