what a kris?

Bill · 5th February 2010, 04:00 PM

Interesting & odd little kris. It almost looks like a composite piece with a barung hilt. But even the metal work on the hilt is odd.
The blade doesn't look like a tourist blade & everything shows some wear & a little age (50/60's?).
Could it have been a training kris for a boy? That might make sense using a barung type hilt so the mini sword doesn't slip out of a inexperienced hand.
I've seen some pretty young boys being trained with wooden bolo's in the Visayas, so it wouldn't surprise me somebody had this made for their boy.

chregu · 5th February 2010, 06:42 PM

I know it is not easy
so I am looking for specialists. New touristenkeris no! The blade is good! has wrought tracks! metal deposits are good, brass, copper, German silver.

David · 5th February 2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

I know it is not easy
so I am looking for specialists. New touristenkeris no! The blade is good! has wrought tracks! metal deposits are good, brass, copper, German silver.

I don't anyone is suggesting it is new, just not an old one. It looks post WW2 to me. Could well be the late 50s or 60s. It definitely has some age to it.
Though i won't necessarily call this a tourist kris i must point out that brass, copper and silver materials are often used on them. This blade does seem a bit meatier than your average tourist blade. Most certainly though it has a mismatched hilt. This is not a kris hilt and clearly wasn't made for this blade.
It's size is unusually short for a Moro Kris at about 13 in. Bill thought about a child's blade might hold weight, but i wonder how much serious kris training kids still got in the Philippines of the 50s and 60s. Enough to warrant making a real blade for the workouts?

kai · 5th February 2010, 10:44 PM

Hello David and Bill,

Quote:

Bill thought about a child's blade might hold weight, but i wonder how much serious kris training kids still got in the Philippines of the 50s and 60s. Enough to warrant making a real blade for the workouts?

The kris was still utilized as a weapon by Moro fighters for several decades later; there surely were lots of families with serious blade training throughout the 20th century (despite guns being more sought after for practical and status reasons).

However, with all the inlay and fancy fittings this is not a practise blade! There are also no antique kris of similar size known which could be considered genuine practise blades for kids...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 6th February 2010, 12:02 AM

I would love to see pictures of this piece taken in daylight; I just cannot see well enough from these pictures .

VANDOO · 6th February 2010, 12:48 AM

IF THE GANJAH IS SEPARATE FROM THE BLADE THE BLADE WAS MADE IN THE PROPER OLD FASHONED WAY WHICH DENOTES HIGHER QUALITY. IF THE INLAY IN THE BLADE IS WELL DONE AND THE BLADE WELL FINISHED THAT ALSO DENOTES GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND QUALITY.
THE HANDLE IS WELL CARVED AND FINISHED LOOK FOR WEAR AND PATINA TO DETERMINE AGE.

THIS KRIS IS NOT TYPICAL DUE TO ITS SMALL SIZE (CLOSER TO A LARGE GUNONG) AND HANDLE WHICH RESEMBLES A BARONG HANDLE MORE THAN A KRIS. IF THE QUALITY IS GOOD BASED ON THE ABOVE CRITERIA IT MAY HAVE BEEN A CUSTOM PIECE EITHER FOR AN INDIVIDUAL OR MADE FOR PRESENTATION OR AS A GIFT. BETTER PICTURES MAY HELP THE EXPERTS ADD SOME INFO BUT THERE IS NO GOOD SUBSTITUTE TO ACTUALLY HAVING IT IN HAND.
JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH.

Bill · 6th February 2010, 03:00 AM

Chregu, I really like this kris & would love to have someone tell us it's story. I think I'm pretty close putting this in the 1950's-60's. Prior to WW2, the US confiscated fighting swords. Post WW2 there was a resurgence of traditional weapons but noticeable changes with the interruption of the traditional craftsmanship. The Southern Philippines didn't become heavily armed till the early 70's.
I've got a few mini kris with 4-6 inch blades. One has a plate between the blade & hilt just like yours. The ones I have are clearly worn & could only function as stabbing weapons. I feel they're from the 50's-60's.
I also have 3 little barungs. I guess they could be kitchen choppers but they have traditional appearance but little quality. Can't imagine any use for them except as training blades for boys. They also appear to be from the 50-60's.
It appears your kris has a nice blade but I don't think the rest of the dress is up to par for a nice presentation piece but is quite presentable for daily use; except it just doesn't have enough wear to show someone carried this daily, for years.
Interesting blade, hope there is more input on it.

kai · 5th February 2010, 10:32 PM

Hello Christoph,

Welcome to the forum!

I agree that this is not one of those crappy blades (which don't deserve the name kris) made for ignorant travellers. However, Moro kris this small (and with fancy fittings/inlay) do seem to be a relatively recent development (WW2 and later) and the (barung) pommel style isn't old, too; IMHO the scabbard also doesn't suggest an origin much earlier than WW2.

Can you ascertain wether the unusual brass grip was made by the lost wax method?

BTW, are you sure that's not real silver utilized for parts of the inlay?

Regards,
Kai

5th February 2010, 04:00 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Interesting & odd little kris. It almost looks like a composite piece with a barung hilt. But even the metal work on the hilt is odd. The blade doesn't look like a tourist blade & everything shows some wear & a little age (50/60's?). Could it have been a training kris for a boy? That might make sense using a barung type hilt so the mini sword doesn't slip out of a inexperienced hand. I've seen some pretty young boys being trained with wooden bolo's in the Visayas, so it wouldn't surprise me somebody had this made for their boy.

5th February 2010, 06:42 PM	#2
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	I know it is not easy so I am looking for specialists. New touristenkeris no! The blade is good! has wrought tracks! metal deposits are good, brass, copper, German silver.

6th February 2010, 12:02 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I would love to see pictures of this piece taken in daylight; I just cannot see well enough from these pictures .

6th February 2010, 12:48 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF THE GANJAH IS SEPARATE FROM THE BLADE THE BLADE WAS MADE IN THE PROPER OLD FASHONED WAY WHICH DENOTES HIGHER QUALITY. IF THE INLAY IN THE BLADE IS WELL DONE AND THE BLADE WELL FINISHED THAT ALSO DENOTES GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND QUALITY. THE HANDLE IS WELL CARVED AND FINISHED LOOK FOR WEAR AND PATINA TO DETERMINE AGE. THIS KRIS IS NOT TYPICAL DUE TO ITS SMALL SIZE (CLOSER TO A LARGE GUNONG) AND HANDLE WHICH RESEMBLES A BARONG HANDLE MORE THAN A KRIS. IF THE QUALITY IS GOOD BASED ON THE ABOVE CRITERIA IT MAY HAVE BEEN A CUSTOM PIECE EITHER FOR AN INDIVIDUAL OR MADE FOR PRESENTATION OR AS A GIFT. BETTER PICTURES MAY HELP THE EXPERTS ADD SOME INFO BUT THERE IS NO GOOD SUBSTITUTE TO ACTUALLY HAVING IT IN HAND. JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH.

6th February 2010, 03:00 AM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Chregu, I really like this kris & would love to have someone tell us it's story. I think I'm pretty close putting this in the 1950's-60's. Prior to WW2, the US confiscated fighting swords. Post WW2 there was a resurgence of traditional weapons but noticeable changes with the interruption of the traditional craftsmanship. The Southern Philippines didn't become heavily armed till the early 70's. I've got a few mini kris with 4-6 inch blades. One has a plate between the blade & hilt just like yours. The ones I have are clearly worn & could only function as stabbing weapons. I feel they're from the 50's-60's. I also have 3 little barungs. I guess they could be kitchen choppers but they have traditional appearance but little quality. Can't imagine any use for them except as training blades for boys. They also appear to be from the 50-60's. It appears your kris has a nice blade but I don't think the rest of the dress is up to par for a nice presentation piece but is quite presentable for daily use; except it just doesn't have enough wear to show someone carried this daily, for years. Interesting blade, hope there is more input on it.

5th February 2010, 10:32 PM	#8
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Christoph, Welcome to the forum! I agree that this is not one of those crappy blades (which don't deserve the name kris) made for ignorant travellers. However, Moro kris this small (and with fancy fittings/inlay) do seem to be a relatively recent development (WW2 and later) and the (barung) pommel style isn't old, too; IMHO the scabbard also doesn't suggest an origin much earlier than WW2. Can you ascertain wether the unusual brass grip was made by the lost wax method? BTW, are you sure that's not real silver utilized for parts of the inlay? Regards, Kai