Ancient, armed Indian from Kabul

B.I · 22nd May 2005, 08:31 PM

hi Aqtai,
the armour you show is a perfect example, and originates from lahore (according to their accession records, which also correspond in decoration with a similar piece in the royal armouries, which was brought back from lahore by Login).
jens illustration shows a slight variation in patterning, with the chequers pierced with dots, which are either brass as well, or copper giving a more attracting contrast.
a nice picture, by the way. where was it taken from?

Aqtai · 22nd May 2005, 09:00 PM

The picture was scanned from a postcard I bought from the V&A in 1999

.

I've just had a look in G.C. Stone's 'Glossary of...". In India armour made of a mixture of mail and brass links was called Ganga Jamni. Stone also points out that armour of this type was invariably unrivetted, which reduces it's efficacy somewhat.

On the subject of Orientalist painting and drawing, many artists tended to mix together armour and clothing from different times and places for maximum visual impact. So the hypothesis that this is a composite figure based on several pieces in The Tzarcoe-Selo collection is probably true.

One of my favorite orientalist paintings is the 'Nubian Guard' by Ludwig Deutsch. This shows a Nubian standing outside what look the doors of the mosque of Sultan Barquq in Cairo. This 'Guard' is wearing a kulah khud, a mail shirt, a red 'abaya, and has a Caucasian khindjal and a pistol thrust through some kind of leather sash. To top it off he appears to be holding an Ottoman standard! The picture is beautiful, but obviously accuracy is not high on Deutsch's agenda, nor was on most Orientalist artists agendas, with the exceptions of David Roberts and Prisse D'Avennes.

ariel · 22nd May 2005, 11:17 PM

Gentlemen,
I recently visited Leeds Royal Armoury and made quite a lot of pictures of their Oriental collection. I apologize for the quality, as I had to photograph through the glass ant the lights were very bad (perhaps, the real reason is my substandard ability).
Well, I photographed a dagger that may provide an answer to the current argument: an Indian (Rajastani) Dha

Rick · 22nd May 2005, 11:34 PM

I photoshopped the overall view for better clarity .

ariel · 22nd May 2005, 11:36 PM

Many thanks. I guess the pic of the scabbard is beyond repair but it gives the idea.

Andrew · 23rd May 2005, 12:25 AM

Thanks for posting that, Ariel!

I think, however, that the museum's attribution is dubious. Given the provenance that apparantly came with the knife, one can hardly blame the museum, but I've never seen such a knife reliably attributed to India.

Ariel, is it double edged?

ariel · 23rd May 2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Thanks for posting that, Ariel!

I think, however, that the museum's attribution is dubious. Given the provenance that apparantly came with the knife, one can hardly blame the museum, but I've never seen such a knife reliably attributed to India.

Ariel, is it double edged?

It is single edged.
As to the attribution, I guess the curators of this Armoury (an offshot of the London Tower) know a thing or two about the origins of their exponates and have a record to prove it.
I see no reason why the Rajastani origin is such an implausibility: after all, French copied the Nimcha , the Russians made splendid Yataghans, the Vietnamese swords were influenced by the Japanese etc, etc. People saw blades they liked and made copies with the local flavor.

B.I · 23rd May 2005, 12:30 AM

well spotted, ariel. it seems that i dont know the armouries anywhere as well as i thought, and that my trips there are spent looking in the wrong direction :-)
unfortunately i dont have a better image (or a worse one either) but it seems to give the original post a different outlook. maybe it was as first assumed, but your new evidence seems just as plausable. would the dha experts give their opinion. the armouries piece (i am assuming) is in no way typical of burma, just heavily influenced (? i'm guessing here). then, is the illustrated dha typical in form or possibly some sort of hybrid.
although relatively late in date, the great exhibition gave us a definate starting point in back-tracking. the only faults are assumption of course. the stands held collections as well as items for sale/examples of stock. if the description given at the time was on an older piece/antique, then this can only come under assumption of the knomledge known at the time. however, most of the pieces there were examples of stock and so we can normally bowl ahead.
attached is from the armouries and is an example of lahore armour. again, a description by a museum is in no way evidence, but these pieces were brought back by Login fron the sikh courts and so we can verify their origin, especially when compared with evidence from the great exhibition.

B.I · 23rd May 2005, 12:34 AM

aqtai,
i just realised that the image you posted was the same as the one i just added. the V&A and armouries loan for special occasions, but other than that keep their collections seperate. mine was definately the armouries so am assuming that you may have made a mistake. either that, or your postcard showed a piece from the armouries, loaned for a special exhibition at the V&A.

Andrew · 23rd May 2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

well spotted, ariel. it seems that i dont know the armouries anywhere as well as i thought, and that my trips there are spent looking in the wrong direction :-)
unfortunately i dont have a better image (or a worse one either) but it seems to give the original post a different outlook. maybe it was as first assumed, but your new evidence seems just as plausable. would the dha experts give their opinion. the armouries piece (i am assuming) is in no way typical of burma, just heavily influenced (? i'm guessing here). then, is the illustrated dha typical in form or possibly some sort of hybrid.
although relatively late in date, the great exhibition gave us a definate starting point in back-tracking. the only faults are assumption of course. the stands held collections as well as items for sale/examples of stock. if the description given at the time was on an older piece/antique, then this can only come under assumption of the knomledge known at the time. however, most of the pieces there were examples of stock and so we can normally bowl ahead.
attached is from the armouries and is an example of lahore armour. again, a description by a museum is in no way evidence, but these pieces were brought back by Login fron the sikh courts and so we can verify their origin, especially when compared with evidence from the great exhibition.

Hi Brian.

Actually, I think the Armory's knife is quite typical of the knives seen in Burma and Thailand. The fullered blade and scabbard fittings, in particular. The sole "odd" characteristic of the type is the horn handle which appears to be faceted. Normally, the handles of these knives are slightly bulbous or cylindrical, sometimes dependant on the material used.

The sword in Jens' photos really doesn't look like anything other than a long-handled Thai darb to me. The distal end of the handle (i.e. that portion visible above the subject's hand) is unusually slim, but I'm not discouraged by what is perhaps just artistic interpretation.

I do tend to be hasty in my observations, however. I'm interested to hear what the other "dha guys" think now.

22nd May 2005, 11:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, I recently visited Leeds Royal Armoury and made quite a lot of pictures of their Oriental collection. I apologize for the quality, as I had to photograph through the glass ant the lights were very bad (perhaps, the real reason is my substandard ability). Well, I photographed a dagger that may provide an answer to the current argument: an Indian (Rajastani) Dha Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 11:34 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Ariel I photoshopped the overall view for better clarity . Attached Images

23rd May 2005, 12:30 AM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	well spotted, ariel. it seems that i dont know the armouries anywhere as well as i thought, and that my trips there are spent looking in the wrong direction :-) unfortunately i dont have a better image (or a worse one either) but it seems to give the original post a different outlook. maybe it was as first assumed, but your new evidence seems just as plausable. would the dha experts give their opinion. the armouries piece (i am assuming) is in no way typical of burma, just heavily influenced (? i'm guessing here). then, is the illustrated dha typical in form or possibly some sort of hybrid. although relatively late in date, the great exhibition gave us a definate starting point in back-tracking. the only faults are assumption of course. the stands held collections as well as items for sale/examples of stock. if the description given at the time was on an older piece/antique, then this can only come under assumption of the knomledge known at the time. however, most of the pieces there were examples of stock and so we can normally bowl ahead. attached is from the armouries and is an example of lahore armour. again, a description by a museum is in no way evidence, but these pieces were brought back by Login fron the sikh courts and so we can verify their origin, especially when compared with evidence from the great exhibition. Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 08:31 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi Aqtai, the armour you show is a perfect example, and originates from lahore (according to their accession records, which also correspond in decoration with a similar piece in the royal armouries, which was brought back from lahore by Login). jens illustration shows a slight variation in patterning, with the chequers pierced with dots, which are either brass as well, or copper giving a more attracting contrast. a nice picture, by the way. where was it taken from?

22nd May 2005, 09:00 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	The picture was scanned from a postcard I bought from the V&A in 1999 . I've just had a look in G.C. Stone's 'Glossary of...". In India armour made of a mixture of mail and brass links was called Ganga Jamni. Stone also points out that armour of this type was invariably unrivetted, which reduces it's efficacy somewhat. On the subject of Orientalist painting and drawing, many artists tended to mix together armour and clothing from different times and places for maximum visual impact. So the hypothesis that this is a composite figure based on several pieces in The Tzarcoe-Selo collection is probably true. One of my favorite orientalist paintings is the 'Nubian Guard' by Ludwig Deutsch. This shows a Nubian standing outside what look the doors of the mosque of Sultan Barquq in Cairo. This 'Guard' is wearing a kulah khud, a mail shirt, a red 'abaya, and has a Caucasian khindjal and a pistol thrust through some kind of leather sash. To top it off he appears to be holding an Ottoman standard! The picture is beautiful, but obviously accuracy is not high on Deutsch's agenda, nor was on most Orientalist artists agendas, with the exceptions of David Roberts and Prisse D'Avennes.

22nd May 2005, 11:36 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Many thanks. I guess the pic of the scabbard is beyond repair but it gives the idea.

23rd May 2005, 12:25 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks for posting that, Ariel! I think, however, that the museum's attribution is dubious. Given the provenance that apparantly came with the knife, one can hardly blame the museum, but I've never seen such a knife reliably attributed to India. Ariel, is it double edged?

23rd May 2005, 12:34 AM	#9
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	aqtai, i just realised that the image you posted was the same as the one i just added. the V&A and armouries loan for special occasions, but other than that keep their collections seperate. mine was definately the armouries so am assuming that you may have made a mistake. either that, or your postcard showed a piece from the armouries, loaned for a special exhibition at the V&A.