BICHWA (THE SCORPIONS STING)

VANDOO · 9th January 2010, 03:16 AM

THERE IS THE POSIBILITY OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ZHULFIKAR AND ANY TWO BLADED WEAPON. BUT IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ALL TWO BLADED SWORDS OR DAGGERS WERE INFLUENCED ONLY BY THAT SOURCE, INDEED THE ORIGINAL ZHULFIKAR SWORD OF THE PROPHET MAY HAVE ORIGINATED FROM SOME EARLIER SOURCE OR INFLUENCE EVEN IF IT WAS A CUSTOM MADE SWORD. I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF THAT PARTICULAR SWORD SO CAN'T SPECULATE ON ITS ORIGINS OR HOW IT CAME INTO THE POSSESION OF THE PROPHET. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS DONE THE RESEARCH COULD START A POST ON IT.

IT IS UNCOMMON BUT SCORPIONS WITH TWO STINGERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN TWO TAILS WITH STINGERS HAVE BEEN FOUND OFTEN ENOUGH TO BE NOTED IN REFRENCES ON THE CRITTERS. IN THESE CASES YOU GET DOUBBLE THE POSION AND PAIN.

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2010, 09:54 PM

This is an interesting thread (uh......except for the trip to fantasyland

but as Ariel notes, we've all got a little 'kid' left in us) and I've been looking into some things, which I hope will help with Vandoo's intent in examining these fascinating daggers. I know I've learned more on these, which I will share here, and would appreciate any clarification as required.

First of all, the dagger at the bottom of post #2 is indeed a khanjarli, which has the very recurved blade seem on khanjars, with the primary distinction apparantly the lunette shaped pommel, in this case ivory, but there are examples with buffalo horn or ebony known. Interestingly, the chiseled motif in the center of the blade amidst the fullering appears to be the 'kundalini flame' device often seen in the blades of many katars.

It is important to note that the recurved shape of these blades appears to actually be with reference to the shape of the buffalo horn, which was believed to have been used in earlier stabbing weapons. The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect. As mentioned by Vandoo, the scorpion has been used in such symbolism in many cultures over time.
As previously mentioned, the agrab (stylized scorpion image) is a well known device used on Arabian weapons to deflect the glance of the evil eye, with the scorpion presumably fearsome enough to have that effect.

As with many weapons and the often confounding terminology that is often associated with them, the term bichwa seems colloquially applied more than anything else. That doesnt help the double blade conundrum I guess

and this may have to do with Indian propensity for unusual and often multi-bladed weapons.

With these terms again, the term tiger tooth for daggers seems to be a case of intrerpolation of metaphoric terms. As with the bagh-nakh, the fearsome looking set of tiger claws, some daggers are referred to as the tigers claw I believe. It seems I have seen some unfounded reference to tiger tooth used regarding daggers, but that seems to have been unsubstantiated.

The term 'tooth' with reference to daggers may be associated with the term jamadhar, which as discussed years ago, is the proper term for the transverse grip daggers we all know as the katar. The error is traced back to Egerton, and was carried forward by subsequent writers.
Loosely interpreted, the 'jamadhar' term from Sanskrit terms means the 'tooth of death', without complex etymological breakdown.

The term 'tooth' of course also may be considered with the materials used in the hilts of these weapons, where walrus tooth was often a source of ivory,
and perhaps zoological elements might have inspired phraseology.

All best regards,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 11th February 2010, 09:24 PM

The diverse expression of form in indigenous Hindu weapons is in and of itself enough to draw someone into the timeless romanticism many collectors feel... and the bichwa is one such example.

Below are a few photos of the lone bichwa I own, which I acquired at a chor bazaar (thieve's market) in the south of India in 1997. It is brass hilted with an iron blade, and is relatively small (many bichwas were made of a size so as to be easily concealed), measuring approximately 9 1/4 inches in OAL.

VANDOO · 12th February 2010, 05:33 PM

ANOTHER BEAUTIFUL AND ORNATE EXAMPLE.

I WILL ADD THREE MORE EXAMPLES FOR REFRENCE TWO ORNATE AND ONE IN A SIMPLE MORE WORKMAN TYPE FORM. I WOULD SUSPECT THE ORNATE ONES WERE WORN WHERE THEY COULD BE SEEN WHILE THE MORE SIMPLE ONES MAY HAVE BEEN CARRIED OPENLY OR CONCEALED FOR SUPRIZE PROTECTION OR TREACHERY. SOME OF THESE PICTURES CAME FROM FORUM MEMBERS POSTS I HOPE I RUFFLE NO FEATHERS BY USING THEM HERE. THANKS :
I HAVE ALSO ADDED A KERIS WITH A SCORPION CUT INTO THE BLADE (OLD OR NEW

) BUT INTERESTING

CourseEight · 12th February 2010, 07:47 PM

I guess I've developped a bit of a penchant for bichwa. Here are mine, some posted here before by me or previous owners.

VANDOO · 12th February 2010, 10:37 PM

A VERY NICE COLLECTION

PERHAPS WITH A FEW MORE PICTURES AND ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ANYONE MIGHT HAVE ON THEM IT COULD MAKE THIS THE CLASSIC THREAD ON BICHWA

ONE INTERESTING FEATURE IS THE HANDLE ON SOME REMIND ME A BIT OF A SPUR TO FIT ON A HORSEMANS BOOT.

ITS KIND OF IRONIC AS I HAVE NEVER OWNED ONE.

Marcus · 17th November 2014, 01:49 PM

I searched out this thread for some background reading while I am waiting for two Bichwa daggers to arrive from Oriental Arms. One thing I noticed, looking at the examples posted, is that on some pieces the grip (loop) is oriented parallel to the blade while on others it is at 90 degrees. Does this suggest different styles of use?

Mercenary · 20th August 2017, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect.
Jim

.
Exactly. Metaphorical. But only for us not for Indian of 17-19th. For them the following words were cognate. Why do you think?

Mercenary · 21st August 2017, 08:54 AM

No ideas? There were no "scorpion's sting" dagger. Bichhua-scorpion, bichhua-nettle, bichhua-dagger - all of them STING.

12th February 2010, 05:33 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ANOTHER BEAUTIFUL AND ORNATE EXAMPLE. I WILL ADD THREE MORE EXAMPLES FOR REFRENCE TWO ORNATE AND ONE IN A SIMPLE MORE WORKMAN TYPE FORM. I WOULD SUSPECT THE ORNATE ONES WERE WORN WHERE THEY COULD BE SEEN WHILE THE MORE SIMPLE ONES MAY HAVE BEEN CARRIED OPENLY OR CONCEALED FOR SUPRIZE PROTECTION OR TREACHERY. SOME OF THESE PICTURES CAME FROM FORUM MEMBERS POSTS I HOPE I RUFFLE NO FEATHERS BY USING THEM HERE. THANKS : I HAVE ALSO ADDED A KERIS WITH A SCORPION CUT INTO THE BLADE (OLD OR NEW ) BUT INTERESTING Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 12th February 2010 at 05:52 PM.

12th February 2010, 07:47 PM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I guess I've developped a bit of a penchant for bichwa. Here are mine, some posted here before by me or previous owners. Attached Images

17th November 2014, 01:49 PM	#7
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Blade orientations I searched out this thread for some background reading while I am waiting for two Bichwa daggers to arrive from Oriental Arms. One thing I noticed, looking at the examples posted, is that on some pieces the grip (loop) is oriented parallel to the blade while on others it is at 90 degrees. Does this suggest different styles of use?

21st August 2017, 08:54 AM	#9
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	No ideas? There were no "scorpion's sting" dagger. Bichhua-scorpion, bichhua-nettle, bichhua-dagger - all of them STING. Last edited by Mercenary; 21st August 2017 at 05:58 PM.

9th January 2010, 03:16 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE IS THE POSIBILITY OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ZHULFIKAR AND ANY TWO BLADED WEAPON. BUT IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ALL TWO BLADED SWORDS OR DAGGERS WERE INFLUENCED ONLY BY THAT SOURCE, INDEED THE ORIGINAL ZHULFIKAR SWORD OF THE PROPHET MAY HAVE ORIGINATED FROM SOME EARLIER SOURCE OR INFLUENCE EVEN IF IT WAS A CUSTOM MADE SWORD. I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF THAT PARTICULAR SWORD SO CAN'T SPECULATE ON ITS ORIGINS OR HOW IT CAME INTO THE POSSESION OF THE PROPHET. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS DONE THE RESEARCH COULD START A POST ON IT. IT IS UNCOMMON BUT SCORPIONS WITH TWO STINGERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN TWO TAILS WITH STINGERS HAVE BEEN FOUND OFTEN ENOUGH TO BE NOTED IN REFRENCES ON THE CRITTERS. IN THESE CASES YOU GET DOUBBLE THE POSION AND PAIN.

9th January 2010, 09:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	This is an interesting thread (uh......except for the trip to fantasyland but as Ariel notes, we've all got a little 'kid' left in us) and I've been looking into some things, which I hope will help with Vandoo's intent in examining these fascinating daggers. I know I've learned more on these, which I will share here, and would appreciate any clarification as required. First of all, the dagger at the bottom of post #2 is indeed a khanjarli, which has the very recurved blade seem on khanjars, with the primary distinction apparantly the lunette shaped pommel, in this case ivory, but there are examples with buffalo horn or ebony known. Interestingly, the chiseled motif in the center of the blade amidst the fullering appears to be the 'kundalini flame' device often seen in the blades of many katars. It is important to note that the recurved shape of these blades appears to actually be with reference to the shape of the buffalo horn, which was believed to have been used in earlier stabbing weapons. The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect. As mentioned by Vandoo, the scorpion has been used in such symbolism in many cultures over time. As previously mentioned, the agrab (stylized scorpion image) is a well known device used on Arabian weapons to deflect the glance of the evil eye, with the scorpion presumably fearsome enough to have that effect. As with many weapons and the often confounding terminology that is often associated with them, the term bichwa seems colloquially applied more than anything else. That doesnt help the double blade conundrum I guess and this may have to do with Indian propensity for unusual and often multi-bladed weapons. With these terms again, the term tiger tooth for daggers seems to be a case of intrerpolation of metaphoric terms. As with the bagh-nakh, the fearsome looking set of tiger claws, some daggers are referred to as the tigers claw I believe. It seems I have seen some unfounded reference to tiger tooth used regarding daggers, but that seems to have been unsubstantiated. The term 'tooth' with reference to daggers may be associated with the term jamadhar, which as discussed years ago, is the proper term for the transverse grip daggers we all know as the katar. The error is traced back to Egerton, and was carried forward by subsequent writers. Loosely interpreted, the 'jamadhar' term from Sanskrit terms means the 'tooth of death', without complex etymological breakdown. The term 'tooth' of course also may be considered with the materials used in the hilts of these weapons, where walrus tooth was often a source of ivory, and perhaps zoological elements might have inspired phraseology. All best regards, Jim

11th February 2010, 09:24 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	The diverse expression of form in indigenous Hindu weapons is in and of itself enough to draw someone into the timeless romanticism many collectors feel... and the bichwa is one such example. Below are a few photos of the lone bichwa I own, which I acquired at a chor bazaar (thieve's market) in the south of India in 1997. It is brass hilted with an iron blade, and is relatively small (many bichwas were made of a size so as to be easily concealed), measuring approximately 9 1/4 inches in OAL.

12th February 2010, 10:37 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE COLLECTION PERHAPS WITH A FEW MORE PICTURES AND ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ANYONE MIGHT HAVE ON THEM IT COULD MAKE THIS THE CLASSIC THREAD ON BICHWA ONE INTERESTING FEATURE IS THE HANDLE ON SOME REMIND ME A BIT OF A SPUR TO FIT ON A HORSEMANS BOOT. ITS KIND OF IRONIC AS I HAVE NEVER OWNED ONE.