And what is this one??

TKV · 3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM

i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin

Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

Oriental-Arms · 3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM

Auction in Western Europe.

One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration:

I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM

Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece.
Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2010, 04:48 PM

I have to agree with Steve with regard to the decoration on the hilt, very reminiscent of late 18thC early 19thC Western European, French?, style. The profile of the blade also suggests to me European input. There was plenty of French and British activity in North Africa at this period and maybe more to the point in the Balkan regions along the Turkish frontier and the Ionian Islands the French had a strong presence raising many irregular regiments amongst the locals. The Albanian/Greek Rasak rifle I have has a barrel that was made at the Mutzig Castle Armoury in Strasbourg which suggests a French, possibly Napoleonic period, rifle barrel was 'appropriated' for a local firearm. Mutzig Armoury 1793-1870, Rasak dated 1825. It does not seem too big a leap to suggest the possibility of a French officer/gentleman having a weapon made locally with the resultant cross cultural twist that appears to be present here. Does the method of suspension give any pointer? I think going down the 'scrimshaw' road is a dead end as this decoration does not suggest the type or form of engraving that is generally understood as 'scrimshaw'.
Regards,
Norman.

Tim Simmons · 3rd January 2010, 05:11 PM

Byron and many of his sort from western Europe travelled widely in the Balkan region enjoying a freedom not possible at home. The scabbard and scrimshaw work is very regency and earlier like Robert Adam interiors as already mentioned. Possibly grand tour piece. Very attractive if you like that sort of thing. This ceiling now in the "met" carries all the design features I think.

broadaxe · 7th January 2010, 11:53 PM

Hello all. I had a chance to examine this magnificent dagger in person. My thoughts: Russian hunting dagger, possibly a presentation piece to nobility.
Explanation: this is a kindjal, basically. The small "eared" pommel is more of russian-type shashka's, rather of yataghan-type. Blade is very thick and heavy, Turkish blades tend to be more practical in their construction, thinner & lighter. The decoration motifs, both the scrimshaw and the embossing on the sheath show strong Rococo period design. Russia of the late 18th century, under the rule of Catherine the Great, saw much influence of French art and philosophy. The period scrimshaw itself is a technique I've seen so far strictly on North American, British, French and Russian artefacts. A highly similar scrimshaw can be seen on late 18th c. guns pictured in the book Masterpieces of Russian Hunting Arms by Jurij Miller. I think the hole in the hilt is not for lanyard but for port-epee of some kind. Worksmanship and quality are superb, anyhow.

RSWORD · 8th January 2010, 03:50 AM

I agree completely with Russia as a possible origin of this piece. However, the scabbard has been throwing me off. I think it is possibly later and from a different area than the kindjal. Was copper commonly used in Russia as scabbard material? The scabbard by itself seems more Turkish in flavor, other than the top mount with leather loop.

3rd January 2010, 04:48 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	I have to agree with Steve with regard to the decoration on the hilt, very reminiscent of late 18thC early 19thC Western European, French?, style. The profile of the blade also suggests to me European input. There was plenty of French and British activity in North Africa at this period and maybe more to the point in the Balkan regions along the Turkish frontier and the Ionian Islands the French had a strong presence raising many irregular regiments amongst the locals. The Albanian/Greek Rasak rifle I have has a barrel that was made at the Mutzig Castle Armoury in Strasbourg which suggests a French, possibly Napoleonic period, rifle barrel was 'appropriated' for a local firearm. Mutzig Armoury 1793-1870, Rasak dated 1825. It does not seem too big a leap to suggest the possibility of a French officer/gentleman having a weapon made locally with the resultant cross cultural twist that appears to be present here. Does the method of suspension give any pointer? I think going down the 'scrimshaw' road is a dead end as this decoration does not suggest the type or form of engraving that is generally understood as 'scrimshaw'. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 3rd January 2010 at 06:08 PM.

3rd January 2010, 05:11 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Byron and many of his sort from western Europe travelled widely in the Balkan region enjoying a freedom not possible at home. The scabbard and scrimshaw work is very regency and earlier like Robert Adam interiors as already mentioned. Possibly grand tour piece. Very attractive if you like that sort of thing. This ceiling now in the "met" carries all the design features I think. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd January 2010 at 06:35 PM.

3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM	#1
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Auction in Western Europe. One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration: I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece. Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.

7th January 2010, 11:53 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hello all. I had a chance to examine this magnificent dagger in person. My thoughts: Russian hunting dagger, possibly a presentation piece to nobility. Explanation: this is a kindjal, basically. The small "eared" pommel is more of russian-type shashka's, rather of yataghan-type. Blade is very thick and heavy, Turkish blades tend to be more practical in their construction, thinner & lighter. The decoration motifs, both the scrimshaw and the embossing on the sheath show strong Rococo period design. Russia of the late 18th century, under the rule of Catherine the Great, saw much influence of French art and philosophy. The period scrimshaw itself is a technique I've seen so far strictly on North American, British, French and Russian artefacts. A highly similar scrimshaw can be seen on late 18th c. guns pictured in the book Masterpieces of Russian Hunting Arms by Jurij Miller. I think the hole in the hilt is not for lanyard but for port-epee of some kind. Worksmanship and quality are superb, anyhow.

8th January 2010, 03:50 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I agree completely with Russia as a possible origin of this piece. However, the scabbard has been throwing me off. I think it is possibly later and from a different area than the kindjal. Was copper commonly used in Russia as scabbard material? The scabbard by itself seems more Turkish in flavor, other than the top mount with leather loop.