And what is this one??

Steve · 3rd January 2010, 12:53 AM

I may be able to provide one clue on this. The scrimshaw design inside the hilt ears was used in decorating many Empire design items, such as furntiture, architecture, clothing etc. The Empire design was based on aspects of the Greek and Roman Empires made popular in Europe following Napoleons conquests. I'm not a design expert but I think this is what they call Napoleon III, popular about mid to late 1800's. So I think you may be looking around the Greek area or with an owner who was well travelled.

My only other thought is that the substantial blade without grooves, looks like a naval dirk to me.
Steve

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2010, 01:20 AM

I think this might be an Ottoman naval dirk

TKV · 3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM

i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin

Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

Oriental-Arms · 3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM

Auction in Western Europe.

One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration:

I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM

Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece.
Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2010, 04:48 PM

I have to agree with Steve with regard to the decoration on the hilt, very reminiscent of late 18thC early 19thC Western European, French?, style. The profile of the blade also suggests to me European input. There was plenty of French and British activity in North Africa at this period and maybe more to the point in the Balkan regions along the Turkish frontier and the Ionian Islands the French had a strong presence raising many irregular regiments amongst the locals. The Albanian/Greek Rasak rifle I have has a barrel that was made at the Mutzig Castle Armoury in Strasbourg which suggests a French, possibly Napoleonic period, rifle barrel was 'appropriated' for a local firearm. Mutzig Armoury 1793-1870, Rasak dated 1825. It does not seem too big a leap to suggest the possibility of a French officer/gentleman having a weapon made locally with the resultant cross cultural twist that appears to be present here. Does the method of suspension give any pointer? I think going down the 'scrimshaw' road is a dead end as this decoration does not suggest the type or form of engraving that is generally understood as 'scrimshaw'.
Regards,
Norman.

Tim Simmons · 3rd January 2010, 05:11 PM

Byron and many of his sort from western Europe travelled widely in the Balkan region enjoying a freedom not possible at home. The scabbard and scrimshaw work is very regency and earlier like Robert Adam interiors as already mentioned. Possibly grand tour piece. Very attractive if you like that sort of thing. This ceiling now in the "met" carries all the design features I think.

3rd January 2010, 04:48 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	I have to agree with Steve with regard to the decoration on the hilt, very reminiscent of late 18thC early 19thC Western European, French?, style. The profile of the blade also suggests to me European input. There was plenty of French and British activity in North Africa at this period and maybe more to the point in the Balkan regions along the Turkish frontier and the Ionian Islands the French had a strong presence raising many irregular regiments amongst the locals. The Albanian/Greek Rasak rifle I have has a barrel that was made at the Mutzig Castle Armoury in Strasbourg which suggests a French, possibly Napoleonic period, rifle barrel was 'appropriated' for a local firearm. Mutzig Armoury 1793-1870, Rasak dated 1825. It does not seem too big a leap to suggest the possibility of a French officer/gentleman having a weapon made locally with the resultant cross cultural twist that appears to be present here. Does the method of suspension give any pointer? I think going down the 'scrimshaw' road is a dead end as this decoration does not suggest the type or form of engraving that is generally understood as 'scrimshaw'. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 3rd January 2010 at 06:08 PM.

3rd January 2010, 05:11 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Byron and many of his sort from western Europe travelled widely in the Balkan region enjoying a freedom not possible at home. The scabbard and scrimshaw work is very regency and earlier like Robert Adam interiors as already mentioned. Possibly grand tour piece. Very attractive if you like that sort of thing. This ceiling now in the "met" carries all the design features I think. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd January 2010 at 06:35 PM.

3rd January 2010, 12:53 AM	#1
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	I may be able to provide one clue on this. The scrimshaw design inside the hilt ears was used in decorating many Empire design items, such as furntiture, architecture, clothing etc. The Empire design was based on aspects of the Greek and Roman Empires made popular in Europe following Napoleons conquests. I'm not a design expert but I think this is what they call Napoleon III, popular about mid to late 1800's. So I think you may be looking around the Greek area or with an owner who was well travelled. My only other thought is that the substantial blade without grooves, looks like a naval dirk to me. Steve

3rd January 2010, 01:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I think this might be an Ottoman naval dirk

3rd January 2010, 03:22 PM	#3
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

3rd January 2010, 03:30 PM	#4
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Auction in Western Europe. One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration: I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

3rd January 2010, 04:13 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece. Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.