And what is this one??

ilias · 1st January 2010, 06:22 PM

In my opinion this is an East European short sword/dagger.The handle has clear European work.About the blade and the scabbard they are from East.Just an opinion.
All the best
Ilias

Jim McDougall · 1st January 2010, 09:16 PM

Most interesting piece, and in accord with the well placed assessments already suggested, I would add the suggestion that perhaps it might be an Ottoman naval dirk.
In certain ways it seems to recall the Caucasian kindjhal and the Persian Qama in profile, and the cleft pommel indeed present in Caucasian and Bukharen weapons, influences all present in Ottoman forces.

While not specifically comparable to the Cretan or Greek weapons, this gestalt seems present in the diffusion of weapons through the Ottoman Empire as with this presumably early to mid 19th century weapon, perhaps earlier.

I think the ivory, the well placed note concerning scrimshaw, might lend to this being a naval weapon, and the tamga like fluorish in gold may suggest an individual of standing from officer to merchant in sea trade.

Lee · 2nd January 2010, 09:04 AM

The 'wave' pattern seen in the background of the close-ups of the inlays is most interesting. In the upper pictures it seems to fade out beyond the area of the engraving. Is this a surface application or does the pattern appear to go deeper.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd January 2010, 09:44 AM

A nice and interesting piece, congrats.

Firstly Turkish comes to mind when looking at the scabbard and blade, some decorations to the side of the tang and the ivory slabs remind me of some French weapons and decorations found on these weapons and the slabs do remind me on the knives from Crete to some degree as noted above.

If I was going to try to place it in a "box" I too would call it an Ottoman dagger and I would also note it as naval, only in so far as I would "assume" that the lanyard hole in the hilt would not normally be seen on knives used on land and a lanyard would be used to secure the piece in hand and thus keeping it from dropping in to the sea forever.

A question about the construction, the image looking between the slab ends, what is the circle? Are the edges of the tang a continuation of the blade or are the strips of another steel? Where the blade and the slabs meet, is that silver inlay on the blade? I also note that what appears to be silver inlay at this point has a distinct Jambiya feel to it, this might also explain the elephant ivory where walrus was usually prominent? Perhaps Oman/Ottoman is the cross cultural mix present on this wonderful looking piece.

Gav

Oriental-Arms · 2nd January 2010, 02:35 PM

Thanks for all the good observations.

Lee,

The wave pattern is an etched design on the surface. Very well made and it is done only around the gold / silver inlaid areas, not on the entire blade.

Gav,

There is no grip strap. What you see between the grips is the tang (very thick and heavy). The purpose of the hole between the pommel ears is not clear, may be to set a gem stone. The silver inlay below the grip is on the blade.

Alltogether, I do not share the Turkish "feeling". Too massive and thick. Turkish blade weapons alwayes looks lighter to me.

ariel · 2nd January 2010, 05:54 PM

I am a slow thinker, so bear with me.
First of all, it has a kindjal blade and the upper fitting of the scabbard is also in the kindjal mode ( so-called antabka). The blade of the kindjal is very massive and has a pronounced diamond section, i.e. features not very popular in the Caucasus or Turkey proper but frequent all over the Balkans, from Bulgaria to Greece and up north. A lot of Circassians and Daghestanis were exiled by the Russains and settled in the Balkans by the Ottomans.
Eared pommel is self-explanatory: Ottoman Empire. However, design pattern has both Turkish ( tulip flowers) and European motives ( flowing ribbons, chevroned ribbons etc). The lanyard hole in the middle of the handle is peculiar. But kilijes had similar security feature.
Altogether I would venture to place it in the Balkans, the crossroads of Europe and Turkey proper.
Obviously, it is a unique piece, made for a one-time buyer who wanted both Caucasian and Turkish motives for his weapon.
The designs on the blade are painfully familiar, but I just cannot place them ( Alzheimer moment? delusion?)
How does the scabbard look? I guess comparing its designs with those in the recent Elgood's book might be useful.
My 3.5 cents worth.....

TKV · 2nd January 2010, 11:07 PM

turkish influenced item, handle looks balkan, but it's not the fact it was made there. I think it's ottoman empire piece.

2nd January 2010, 09:44 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting A nice and interesting piece, congrats. Firstly Turkish comes to mind when looking at the scabbard and blade, some decorations to the side of the tang and the ivory slabs remind me of some French weapons and decorations found on these weapons and the slabs do remind me on the knives from Crete to some degree as noted above. If I was going to try to place it in a "box" I too would call it an Ottoman dagger and I would also note it as naval, only in so far as I would "assume" that the lanyard hole in the hilt would not normally be seen on knives used on land and a lanyard would be used to secure the piece in hand and thus keeping it from dropping in to the sea forever. A question about the construction, the image looking between the slab ends, what is the circle? Are the edges of the tang a continuation of the blade or are the strips of another steel? Where the blade and the slabs meet, is that silver inlay on the blade? I also note that what appears to be silver inlay at this point has a distinct Jambiya feel to it, this might also explain the elephant ivory where walrus was usually prominent? Perhaps Oman/Ottoman is the cross cultural mix present on this wonderful looking piece. Gav

1st January 2010, 06:22 PM	#1
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	In my opinion this is an East European short sword/dagger.The handle has clear European work.About the blade and the scabbard they are from East.Just an opinion. All the best Ilias

1st January 2010, 09:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Most interesting piece, and in accord with the well placed assessments already suggested, I would add the suggestion that perhaps it might be an Ottoman naval dirk. In certain ways it seems to recall the Caucasian kindjhal and the Persian Qama in profile, and the cleft pommel indeed present in Caucasian and Bukharen weapons, influences all present in Ottoman forces. While not specifically comparable to the Cretan or Greek weapons, this gestalt seems present in the diffusion of weapons through the Ottoman Empire as with this presumably early to mid 19th century weapon, perhaps earlier. I think the ivory, the well placed note concerning scrimshaw, might lend to this being a naval weapon, and the tamga like fluorish in gold may suggest an individual of standing from officer to merchant in sea trade.

2nd January 2010, 09:04 AM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	The 'wave' pattern seen in the background of the close-ups of the inlays is most interesting. In the upper pictures it seems to fade out beyond the area of the engraving. Is this a surface application or does the pattern appear to go deeper.

2nd January 2010, 02:35 PM	#5
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Thanks for all the good observations. Lee, The wave pattern is an etched design on the surface. Very well made and it is done only around the gold / silver inlaid areas, not on the entire blade. Gav, There is no grip strap. What you see between the grips is the tang (very thick and heavy). The purpose of the hole between the pommel ears is not clear, may be to set a gem stone. The silver inlay below the grip is on the blade. Alltogether, I do not share the Turkish "feeling". Too massive and thick. Turkish blade weapons alwayes looks lighter to me.

2nd January 2010, 05:54 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am a slow thinker, so bear with me. First of all, it has a kindjal blade and the upper fitting of the scabbard is also in the kindjal mode ( so-called antabka). The blade of the kindjal is very massive and has a pronounced diamond section, i.e. features not very popular in the Caucasus or Turkey proper but frequent all over the Balkans, from Bulgaria to Greece and up north. A lot of Circassians and Daghestanis were exiled by the Russains and settled in the Balkans by the Ottomans. Eared pommel is self-explanatory: Ottoman Empire. However, design pattern has both Turkish ( tulip flowers) and European motives ( flowing ribbons, chevroned ribbons etc). The lanyard hole in the middle of the handle is peculiar. But kilijes had similar security feature. Altogether I would venture to place it in the Balkans, the crossroads of Europe and Turkey proper. Obviously, it is a unique piece, made for a one-time buyer who wanted both Caucasian and Turkish motives for his weapon. The designs on the blade are painfully familiar, but I just cannot place them ( Alzheimer moment? delusion?) How does the scabbard look? I guess comparing its designs with those in the recent Elgood's book might be useful. My 3.5 cents worth.....

2nd January 2010, 11:07 PM	#7
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	turkish influenced item, handle looks balkan, but it's not the fact it was made there. I think it's ottoman empire piece.