Seven Palm Musket

fernando · 15th December 2009, 07:08 PM

Even assuming that the author gave wings to his imagination, the muskets quoted surely had an impressive length, making it close to plausible that the measurement units were indeed the Roman palm.
Even not deeping into academical research, one can easily realize that at the discussed period, shoulder arms of ‘abnormal’ proportions were already used in certain circumstances, as opposed to their current parents, those with dimensions more often seen.
I have spotted the portuguese version of the ‘Religion’ book in the web, and there are some (other) passages that i find interesting, on what concerns this ‘Palm’ issue.

First of all, it must be said that, the nine palms quoted refer to the barrel length only, and not to the whole weapon.

Extending page 298 paragraph introduced here by Queequeg:
… and, with Orlandu carrying it, he (Tanhauser) dragged by the walls behind the lancers, shooting it from the battlements and causing inumerous deaths among Mustapha’s officers …

Furthermore in other pages:
… For Orlandu, the burden of carrying six quilos of musket, a bag with five kilos of bullets, and a heavy powder flask …
… The excessive and double (powder) loads, which weapon’s kick back almost threw his hero out of the platforms, made him (Orlandu) coarse and blood …
… Tanhauser pressed the trigger and kept still, when the match lit the fire-hole. The nine palms barrel shook and thundered; thye Muslim rudderman was ripped from his place and disappeared in the dark, beyond the ship’s stern.
… At the left flank of the advance, a series of Tüfekchi entered formation off the limit reached by the arquebuses and shot a mantle of fire from their nine palm muskets …
… The Christian arquebuses fired along the circumvolution, but were no pair for the Turkish nine palm muskets …
… Tanhauser picked the gun still wrapped, threw it on the table and asked Bors: as you always have an opinion, give me one now. Bors got up, picked it with both hands and, by reflex, tested its weight. His eyes glimpsed; he laid it on the table and unwrapped it. When the silver, ebony and steel revealed, he gave it a knowledge look. The gun jumped in his hands as i it were alive, and he threw it over his shoulder, sighted and moved it adequately in arch, the silver and the damascened nine palms barrel trembling in the light of the table lamps. Perfection – he murmured - priceless. He then lowered it, with the effort of someone having his teeth extracted, put it back within the blanket, saying: i would hit the castrated bulls of a Muslim at a distance of some hundred fifty meters …

Within my ignorance, i find it hard to accept that these fantabulous muskets had no more than one meter length.

Fernando.

katana · 15th December 2009, 07:43 PM

Hi Fernando

,
thanks for posting further passages from the book, it backs up alot of what I have already said. Even the mention of "....... the damascened nine palms barrel trembling in the light of the table lamps...." seems to confirm that these barrels were Ottoman manufactured by the process I mentioned in my last post.

It was also stated that at the time of the siege it was acknowledged that the Ottomans had superior gunpowder. Its finer grain had a faster ignition which provided faster velocity of the projectile. If, as mentioned in the excepts, a 'double charge' was required it can only mean 1. the caliber was larger and therefore the 'ball' heavier or 2. the barrel was significantly longer....to overcome the increased friction of the ball with the barrel as it is propelled through it.......or 3 ...a combination of 1 and 2.

"..........At the left flank of the advance, a series of Tüfekchi entered formation off the limit reached by the arquebuses and shot a mantle of fire from their nine palm muskets ......."
This also suggests that my asumption that these 9 palm muskets were specialist weapons used at distance ....before the two army 'fronts' could engage in force, is also right.

The Tüfekchi were the Janissary (elite soldiers) musketeers

I have tried, in vain, to find a picture, hopefully one will "turn up"

All the best
David

fearn · 16th December 2009, 08:46 PM

Here's a reference to an "8 palm" turkish miquelet. I don't know much about these muskets, but the few pictures I've seen of them had longish barrels. I'm not sure why one that's 180 cm or longer is out of the question.

fernando · 17th December 2009, 02:36 PM

Hi Fearn,
I guess that one, being XVIII century, is 'too modern' for the context

.
Fernando

15th December 2009, 07:08 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Even assuming that the author gave wings to his imagination, the muskets quoted surely had an impressive length, making it close to plausible that the measurement units were indeed the Roman palm. Even not deeping into academical research, one can easily realize that at the discussed period, shoulder arms of ‘abnormal’ proportions were already used in certain circumstances, as opposed to their current parents, those with dimensions more often seen. I have spotted the portuguese version of the ‘Religion’ book in the web, and there are some (other) passages that i find interesting, on what concerns this ‘Palm’ issue. First of all, it must be said that, the nine palms quoted refer to the barrel length only, and not to the whole weapon. Extending page 298 paragraph introduced here by Queequeg: … and, with Orlandu carrying it, he (Tanhauser) dragged by the walls behind the lancers, shooting it from the battlements and causing inumerous deaths among Mustapha’s officers … Furthermore in other pages: … For Orlandu, the burden of carrying six quilos of musket, a bag with five kilos of bullets, and a heavy powder flask … … The excessive and double (powder) loads, which weapon’s kick back almost threw his hero out of the platforms, made him (Orlandu) coarse and blood … … Tanhauser pressed the trigger and kept still, when the match lit the fire-hole. The nine palms barrel shook and thundered; thye Muslim rudderman was ripped from his place and disappeared in the dark, beyond the ship’s stern. … At the left flank of the advance, a series of Tüfekchi entered formation off the limit reached by the arquebuses and shot a mantle of fire from their nine palm muskets … … The Christian arquebuses fired along the circumvolution, but were no pair for the Turkish nine palm muskets … … Tanhauser picked the gun still wrapped, threw it on the table and asked Bors: as you always have an opinion, give me one now. Bors got up, picked it with both hands and, by reflex, tested its weight. His eyes glimpsed; he laid it on the table and unwrapped it. When the silver, ebony and steel revealed, he gave it a knowledge look. The gun jumped in his hands as i it were alive, and he threw it over his shoulder, sighted and moved it adequately in arch, the silver and the damascened nine palms barrel trembling in the light of the table lamps. Perfection – he murmured - priceless. He then lowered it, with the effort of someone having his teeth extracted, put it back within the blanket, saying: i would hit the castrated bulls of a Muslim at a distance of some hundred fifty meters … Within my ignorance, i find it hard to accept that these fantabulous muskets had no more than one meter length. Fernando.

15th December 2009, 07:43 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando , thanks for posting further passages from the book, it backs up alot of what I have already said. Even the mention of "....... the damascened nine palms barrel trembling in the light of the table lamps...." seems to confirm that these barrels were Ottoman manufactured by the process I mentioned in my last post. It was also stated that at the time of the siege it was acknowledged that the Ottomans had superior gunpowder. Its finer grain had a faster ignition which provided faster velocity of the projectile. If, as mentioned in the excepts, a 'double charge' was required it can only mean 1. the caliber was larger and therefore the 'ball' heavier or 2. the barrel was significantly longer....to overcome the increased friction of the ball with the barrel as it is propelled through it.......or 3 ...a combination of 1 and 2. "..........At the left flank of the advance, a series of Tüfekchi entered formation off the limit reached by the arquebuses and shot a mantle of fire from their nine palm muskets ......." This also suggests that my asumption that these 9 palm muskets were specialist weapons used at distance ....before the two army 'fronts' could engage in force, is also right. The Tüfekchi were the Janissary (elite soldiers) musketeers I have tried, in vain, to find a picture, hopefully one will "turn up" All the best David

16th December 2009, 08:46 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Here's a reference to an "8 palm" turkish miquelet. I don't know much about these muskets, but the few pictures I've seen of them had longish barrels. I'm not sure why one that's 180 cm or longer is out of the question.

17th December 2009, 02:36 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Fearn, I guess that one, being XVIII century, is 'too modern' for the context . Fernando