a strange hulu detail

Sajen · 6th December 2009, 02:02 PM

Hello Michel,

I have seen this some time ago in e-bay, someone sold some keris with such hilts and small stones set in the warangka; your keris is maybe from this origin?
I think that this isn't original, I see on your pictures that the "knob" is glued.

Regards,

Detlef

Michel · 6th December 2009, 04:10 PM

Yes Detlef, the piece is glued.
I however doubt the kriss is coming from Ebay as the owner does not utilize Ebay (He is a well known kriss collector with an extensive knowledge on the kriss and the Indonesian culture)
He has not told me where from he got it. He had also not seen such a knob on any kriss.
He unfortunately does not come on the forum as his knowledge would help us a lot but agreed that I ask the question.
May be someone of the forum knows something about this curious knob, tis reason and origin ?
Although a well carved hulu, the gluing is not perfect. To my eyes it is a modern hulu with an added knob. But Why ? What are the reasons that were behind such a strange ad on ?
It cannot be aesthetic, nor functional, what could justify it ?
I am at lost !
Hey, could it be a simple marketing gimmick ? just like the stone or gold piece on the warangka ?
Regards
Michel

Sajen · 6th December 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Yes Detlef, the piece is glued.

Hey, could it be a simple marketing gimmick ? just like the stone or gold piece on the warangka ?
Regards
Michel

Hello Michel,

I think like this, since I never have seen something like this original, but this is only my guess.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 6th December 2009, 10:49 PM

In Surakarta there used to be a very famous art connoisseur, who has now left this world.

He had guided many fellow Indonesians with his knowledge and was known internationally. He had connections at the very highest level of Indonesian society, and almost invariably, when any officially sanctioned endeavour in the field of Indonesian art occurred, this man was involved.He was particularly well known in the field of keris.

There is no doubt that this man had immense knowledge, and his knowledge of the keris was absolutely first class.

He was constantly on the lookout for high quality and unusual keris, and he maintained links, mostly through agents, with many keris dealers in Central Jawa and beyond.

He was very, very well known in the keris trade, and people were constantly striving to create new designs he had not seen, and variations of design that he had not previously encountered. He was very well known within a segment of the keris trade as being always able to be deceived by something that he had not previously seen.Because of this a few people worked continually on producing keris and keris related items specifically for feeding to this extremely knowledgeable and well known connoisseur with an international reputation. Mostly their forgeries and other deceptions were successful.

Centini wrote 200 years ago that if you want to learn about keris you must go to the market place.

Nothing has changed since then.

There is one basic rule that should come before all others in identifying that which is genuine and that which is false in the world of the keris:-

recognise quality.

This will not invariably protect you, but at the level of the market where most people who collect in the western world buy, it is a very, very good rule to live by.

Quality does not necessarily equate to expensive, but it invariably equates to artistic sensibility.

In this hilt under discussion, can anybody see any artistic sensibility in a lump of wood with a coarse grain running the wrong way glued to a reasonably well carved hilt?

Michel · 8th December 2009, 05:32 PM

Hello every one
Thank you Alan for your little story. Instructive point of view.
Now, I transmitted the complete discussion to the owner of the kris and this is a free translation of the main points of his answer:

Thank you to all of those who have examined and commented about this curious kris of mine.This kris is coming from a good Javanese kris collector who had it identified precisely with a sticker on the back of the pendok. I do not think that the handle has been modified for marketing purposes. The more I go into it, the more I think that it is one of these modification made by some Javanese related to an important events of their live or a special wish. One can find these kind of chiseling made on blades, addition made with inlay of gold, or precious stones on warangka. This is linked to mystical questions, that one has to take into account with kris. I will travel to Jogja next year and I will try to solve that little mystery.

Well gentlemen, I think we will have to wait for his return from Jogja to have his explanations.
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2009, 11:09 PM

An interesting response from your friend Michel.

If he is going to Central Jawa in the near future, I am certain that he can look forward to beginning a new phase of his education in the keris --- perhaps analogous to entry into kindergarten.

I trust he will bear in mind that no education comes free.

Alam Shah · 9th December 2009, 02:04 AM

I've not seen this type of hilt in particular, but have seen some older hilts embedded with some objects like stones, metals and other wood. Bugis, Sumatran and Peninsular hilt forms..

As far as I'm told, the reason is more talismanic in nature, according to some belief system. How far this is true, I do not know.

The object that was glued, seem to be a cabachon meant for a ring, pendant or something along that line.. which probably have some animistic value.

6th December 2009, 04:10 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Glued knob Yes Detlef, the piece is glued. I however doubt the kriss is coming from Ebay as the owner does not utilize Ebay (He is a well known kriss collector with an extensive knowledge on the kriss and the Indonesian culture) He has not told me where from he got it. He had also not seen such a knob on any kriss. He unfortunately does not come on the forum as his knowledge would help us a lot but agreed that I ask the question. May be someone of the forum knows something about this curious knob, tis reason and origin ? Although a well carved hulu, the gluing is not perfect. To my eyes it is a modern hulu with an added knob. But Why ? What are the reasons that were behind such a strange ad on ? It cannot be aesthetic, nor functional, what could justify it ? I am at lost ! Hey, could it be a simple marketing gimmick ? just like the stone or gold piece on the warangka ? Regards Michel

8th December 2009, 05:32 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	answer from the kris owner Hello every one Thank you Alan for your little story. Instructive point of view. Now, I transmitted the complete discussion to the owner of the kris and this is a free translation of the main points of his answer: Thank you to all of those who have examined and commented about this curious kris of mine.This kris is coming from a good Javanese kris collector who had it identified precisely with a sticker on the back of the pendok. I do not think that the handle has been modified for marketing purposes. The more I go into it, the more I think that it is one of these modification made by some Javanese related to an important events of their live or a special wish. One can find these kind of chiseling made on blades, addition made with inlay of gold, or precious stones on warangka. This is linked to mystical questions, that one has to take into account with kris. I will travel to Jogja next year and I will try to solve that little mystery. Well gentlemen, I think we will have to wait for his return from Jogja to have his explanations. Regards Michel

6th December 2009, 02:02 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Michel, I have seen this some time ago in e-bay, someone sold some keris with such hilts and small stones set in the warangka; your keris is maybe from this origin? I think that this isn't original, I see on your pictures that the "knob" is glued. Regards, Detlef

6th December 2009, 10:49 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	In Surakarta there used to be a very famous art connoisseur, who has now left this world. He had guided many fellow Indonesians with his knowledge and was known internationally. He had connections at the very highest level of Indonesian society, and almost invariably, when any officially sanctioned endeavour in the field of Indonesian art occurred, this man was involved.He was particularly well known in the field of keris. There is no doubt that this man had immense knowledge, and his knowledge of the keris was absolutely first class. He was constantly on the lookout for high quality and unusual keris, and he maintained links, mostly through agents, with many keris dealers in Central Jawa and beyond. He was very, very well known in the keris trade, and people were constantly striving to create new designs he had not seen, and variations of design that he had not previously encountered. He was very well known within a segment of the keris trade as being always able to be deceived by something that he had not previously seen.Because of this a few people worked continually on producing keris and keris related items specifically for feeding to this extremely knowledgeable and well known connoisseur with an international reputation. Mostly their forgeries and other deceptions were successful. Centini wrote 200 years ago that if you want to learn about keris you must go to the market place. Nothing has changed since then. There is one basic rule that should come before all others in identifying that which is genuine and that which is false in the world of the keris:- recognise quality. This will not invariably protect you, but at the level of the market where most people who collect in the western world buy, it is a very, very good rule to live by. Quality does not necessarily equate to expensive, but it invariably equates to artistic sensibility. In this hilt under discussion, can anybody see any artistic sensibility in a lump of wood with a coarse grain running the wrong way glued to a reasonably well carved hilt?

8th December 2009, 11:09 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	An interesting response from your friend Michel. If he is going to Central Jawa in the near future, I am certain that he can look forward to beginning a new phase of his education in the keris --- perhaps analogous to entry into kindergarten. I trust he will bear in mind that no education comes free.

9th December 2009, 02:04 AM	#7
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	I've not seen this type of hilt in particular, but have seen some older hilts embedded with some objects like stones, metals and other wood. Bugis, Sumatran and Peninsular hilt forms.. As far as I'm told, the reason is more talismanic in nature, according to some belief system. How far this is true, I do not know. The object that was glued, seem to be a cabachon meant for a ring, pendant or something along that line.. which probably have some animistic value.