KINDJAL?? QAMA?? FOR COMMENT

kahnjar1 · 3rd December 2009, 04:01 AM

Thanks TVV. I agree and am always open to all opinions. It would be very naive not to listen to other opinions. However the provenace says something else, so I am in a bit of a quandry. I DO take the point that the piece looks to be in very good order, but then we do not know how it was stored over the years. Many weapons from ages long gone have survived in remarkably good order.
I did originally post this item for comment and am happy will all opinions.

Regards Stuart

asomotif · 3rd December 2009, 11:35 AM

hello Stuart,

Intersting thread.
I have zero knowledge of Kindjals, but of course I am interested in estimating/determaning the age of pieces.

I can imagine why some say that this is a new piece.
The silver work is very clean and shiny
Has the silver work been cleaned recently ?
Can you post another picture with a close up of the back of the scabbard ?
The back seems to have more age/wear and tear that the front

Best regards,
Willem

A Senefelder · 3rd December 2009, 02:28 PM

Howdy, very nice piece. I dabbled a very little bit in kinjal and qama in the late 90's. My little research left me with the impression at the time that qama tended to be completley covered in silve/nickel/ niello both hilt and scabbard ( like the kinjal the front would be decorated, while the back, the side that layed against the hip would be left plain ) while kinjals used less silver/nickel/ neillo decoration, the hilts often being left plain other than the rivets and perhaps a small panel set in the horn. I am far from an expert ( very far ) but from what I remember the pretty complete use of silver/nickel/neillo would have this seeming more possilby to be a Georgian qama. I owned several kinjals with a similar etched pattern in the fullers, and was left curious at the time if it wasn't some kind of Islamic script done in proffusion, given the Islamic influence in the region.

ariel · 3rd December 2009, 11:15 PM

Caucasian masters often employed the technique of false damascening, mainly in the fullers, just like in all the examples shown here.
They covered the blade with a layer of goat fat, then drew the pattern with a sharp needle and covered the blade with sand soaked in acid. After ~one day they had an ~1 mm deep pattern. Cheap, quick and visually appealing.
They rarely made real damascus, because it was ~10 times more expensive to make and took a lot of time. Ordinarily, a master could make 2 regular blades a day.

I also do not think that the kindjal in question is Caucasian; Turkish would be my guess. This is because the artistic motives do not look Caucasian at all. Again, I can only notice that the niello looks absolutely pristine, with unusually sharp and intact edges, and the incised surfaces are also unusually crisp. I do not doubt your reliance on the alleged provenance, but I would not buy this one. Well, I can be totally wrong....

Gess · 4th December 2009, 09:44 AM

Ariel +1
I have are several old, good Caucasian blades. Was previously thought, buy a modern kinjal and change the blades. But I decided not to do so, find pieces of old, then will gather.
In your case, just such an assembly. Turkish blade and (may be) some sort of a part of the scabbard- in a modern "silver dress".
It's my firm opinion.

A Senefelder · 4th December 2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

because it was ~10 times more expensive to make and took a lot of time.

That it is. Having made a number of knife weight billets of pattern welded steel in the past, several friends and I set about making a sword weight billet one weekend last month. Intended to be a totally random pattern starting with five layers of 1075, two of hand file, one of bandsaw blade and one of nickle, it took three men, using a propane forge with a blower on the air intake ( this allows us to generate forgewelding heat ) and two 15 pound sledghammers it took us a full eight hours to get a billet weighing three pounds with dimentions of 2.2 inches high, 6.5 inches long and 2 inches wide and our arms we shot from the heavy hammer work. We are maybe 5% of the way to having this billet made into a sword blade at this point. This little experiment shed some light on the intense amount of physical work that would have gone into making these sorts of steels.

kahnjar1 · 6th December 2009, 04:59 AM

Sorry it's taken so long. Here are some better pics of the back of the scabbard.
The neillo on the front is as it was when I got this piece, and has not been cleaned by me. The sharpness of the decoration is presumably due to fact that (assuming the provenance is correct) this piece has been in a collection for quite some time, so the normal wear and tear of use has not happened. Comments here have prompted me to realise just how "nasty" that added centre piece is, and I am now very tempted to remove it.......What do you think?? The original leather is underneath.
Regards Stuart

6th December 2009, 04:59 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Pics of scabbard back Sorry it's taken so long. Here are some better pics of the back of the scabbard. The neillo on the front is as it was when I got this piece, and has not been cleaned by me. The sharpness of the decoration is presumably due to fact that (assuming the provenance is correct) this piece has been in a collection for quite some time, so the normal wear and tear of use has not happened. Comments here have prompted me to realise just how "nasty" that added centre piece is, and I am now very tempted to remove it.......What do you think?? The original leather is underneath. Regards Stuart Attached Images

3rd December 2009, 04:01 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Thanks TVV. I agree and am always open to all opinions. It would be very naive not to listen to other opinions. However the provenace says something else, so I am in a bit of a quandry. I DO take the point that the piece looks to be in very good order, but then we do not know how it was stored over the years. Many weapons from ages long gone have survived in remarkably good order. I did originally post this item for comment and am happy will all opinions. Regards Stuart

3rd December 2009, 11:35 AM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	hello Stuart, Intersting thread. I have zero knowledge of Kindjals, but of course I am interested in estimating/determaning the age of pieces. I can imagine why some say that this is a new piece. The silver work is very clean and shiny Has the silver work been cleaned recently ? Can you post another picture with a close up of the back of the scabbard ? The back seems to have more age/wear and tear that the front Best regards, Willem

3rd December 2009, 02:28 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Howdy, very nice piece. I dabbled a very little bit in kinjal and qama in the late 90's. My little research left me with the impression at the time that qama tended to be completley covered in silve/nickel/ niello both hilt and scabbard ( like the kinjal the front would be decorated, while the back, the side that layed against the hip would be left plain ) while kinjals used less silver/nickel/ neillo decoration, the hilts often being left plain other than the rivets and perhaps a small panel set in the horn. I am far from an expert ( very far ) but from what I remember the pretty complete use of silver/nickel/neillo would have this seeming more possilby to be a Georgian qama. I owned several kinjals with a similar etched pattern in the fullers, and was left curious at the time if it wasn't some kind of Islamic script done in proffusion, given the Islamic influence in the region.

3rd December 2009, 11:15 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Caucasian masters often employed the technique of false damascening, mainly in the fullers, just like in all the examples shown here. They covered the blade with a layer of goat fat, then drew the pattern with a sharp needle and covered the blade with sand soaked in acid. After ~one day they had an ~1 mm deep pattern. Cheap, quick and visually appealing. They rarely made real damascus, because it was ~10 times more expensive to make and took a lot of time. Ordinarily, a master could make 2 regular blades a day. I also do not think that the kindjal in question is Caucasian; Turkish would be my guess. This is because the artistic motives do not look Caucasian at all. Again, I can only notice that the niello looks absolutely pristine, with unusually sharp and intact edges, and the incised surfaces are also unusually crisp. I do not doubt your reliance on the alleged provenance, but I would not buy this one. Well, I can be totally wrong....

4th December 2009, 09:44 AM	#5
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Ariel +1 I have are several old, good Caucasian blades. Was previously thought, buy a modern kinjal and change the blades. But I decided not to do so, find pieces of old, then will gather. In your case, just such an assembly. Turkish blade and (may be) some sort of a part of the scabbard- in a modern "silver dress". It's my firm opinion.