KINDJAL?? QAMA?? FOR COMMENT

kahnjar1 · 2nd December 2009, 04:26 AM

Interesting----I was about to repost this as I got no response before. The centre panel is certainly an addition. OK we have 2 differing opinions as to origin. What is reason for the attribution to Turkey?---and to Caucasus? I had been told it came from Dagistan and dated to around 1910.
The niello is NOT new and apart from the centre section the piece looks to be all made at one time and not a combination of "bits".
Regards Stuart

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 12:17 PM

Here's my "Turk", purchased on eBay.
Of course, the more coarse imitation of Damascus, but ... you should look.
False damascus etch in valleys blade.

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 12:39 PM

Here's my "Tiflisky" kinjal. And a sample of grain on my other integrally silver kinjal.

Work on the silver on your kinjal, rather primitive and crude.
Blade itself - may be Dagestan.
If this Dagestan - a modern (2007-2009) and assembly, as said Ariel.

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 01:02 PM

See how to look old rivets.
For the modern masters - too much work.

Gess · 2nd December 2009, 01:36 PM

Dear Stuart!
No injuries. On Turkey, I thought because of the imitation of Damascus, the press and the middle of scabbard.
But everything else looks more like a modern art work of the Caucasus.
Currently works a huge industry, for the production of fakes and replicas. And in Turkey, and in Caucasus. There are some things that to understand difficult, to experts.
I hope you do not pay much expensive.
Regards

kahnjar1 · 2nd December 2009, 05:24 PM

DEFINATELY NOT a modern piece. The KNOWN (and indisputable) provenance is that this piece was one of several edged weapons collected by well known local family during a world journey in the 1930s. The fullers are in my opinion NOT designed to resemble damascus but are purely finely decorated in the "valleys". As stated before, the centre section of the scabbard has been added later. The Niello work is not rough. I will try to post better pics of that.
What about a comment as to origin of the blade mark?
Regards Stuart

TVV · 2nd December 2009, 07:01 PM

Stu,

If you trust the previous owner's story based on his word, then I guess this settles it. But if you feel you need to consult the collective knowledge of the forum, then you should be prepared to explore all possibilities, including the ones, which are not nice.

To me, this kindjal looks like an old blade in modern fittings.

There are a lot of reproductions, varying in quality, coming out of the Caucasus nowadays - from the Kizlyar factory in Dagestan to numerous small shops in Georgia. The rules prevent me from linking to eBay, but if you do a quick search, you can easily find an eBay store from Georgia, which offers antiques as well as modern reproductions (souvenirs) of decent quality. Then you can examine the reproductions and see why so many of us here suspect that the fittings of the kindjal you posted are modern - post WW2 at the earliest.

As for the marking, the crescent and star are found on the flags of Turkey and Azerbaijan. I guess this may have prompted the Turkish attribution, along with the multiple, centrally placed fullers. Such blade style is often found on Turkish pieces.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but I think it would benefit you the most to read as many varying opinions as possible, and then decide for yourself.

Best regards,
Teodor

2nd December 2009, 12:17 PM	#2
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Here's my "Turk", purchased on eBay. Of course, the more coarse imitation of Damascus, but ... you should look. False damascus etch in valleys blade. Attached Images

2nd December 2009, 12:39 PM	#3
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Here's my "Tiflisky" kinjal. And a sample of grain on my other integrally silver kinjal. Work on the silver on your kinjal, rather primitive and crude. Blade itself - may be Dagestan. If this Dagestan - a modern (2007-2009) and assembly, as said Ariel. Attached Images Last edited by Gess; 2nd December 2009 at 01:17 PM.

2nd December 2009, 01:02 PM	#4
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	See how to look old rivets. For the modern masters - too much work. Attached Images

2nd December 2009, 04:26 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Interesting----I was about to repost this as I got no response before. The centre panel is certainly an addition. OK we have 2 differing opinions as to origin. What is reason for the attribution to Turkey?---and to Caucasus? I had been told it came from Dagistan and dated to around 1910. The niello is NOT new and apart from the centre section the piece looks to be all made at one time and not a combination of "bits". Regards Stuart

2nd December 2009, 01:36 PM	#5
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Dear Stuart! No injuries. On Turkey, I thought because of the imitation of Damascus, the press and the middle of scabbard. But everything else looks more like a modern art work of the Caucasus. Currently works a huge industry, for the production of fakes and replicas. And in Turkey, and in Caucasus. There are some things that to understand difficult, to experts. I hope you do not pay much expensive. Regards

2nd December 2009, 05:24 PM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	DEFINATELY NOT a modern piece. The KNOWN (and indisputable) provenance is that this piece was one of several edged weapons collected by well known local family during a world journey in the 1930s. The fullers are in my opinion NOT designed to resemble damascus but are purely finely decorated in the "valleys". As stated before, the centre section of the scabbard has been added later. The Niello work is not rough. I will try to post better pics of that. What about a comment as to origin of the blade mark? Regards Stuart

2nd December 2009, 07:01 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Stu, If you trust the previous owner's story based on his word, then I guess this settles it. But if you feel you need to consult the collective knowledge of the forum, then you should be prepared to explore all possibilities, including the ones, which are not nice. To me, this kindjal looks like an old blade in modern fittings. There are a lot of reproductions, varying in quality, coming out of the Caucasus nowadays - from the Kizlyar factory in Dagestan to numerous small shops in Georgia. The rules prevent me from linking to eBay, but if you do a quick search, you can easily find an eBay store from Georgia, which offers antiques as well as modern reproductions (souvenirs) of decent quality. Then you can examine the reproductions and see why so many of us here suspect that the fittings of the kindjal you posted are modern - post WW2 at the earliest. As for the marking, the crescent and star are found on the flags of Turkey and Azerbaijan. I guess this may have prompted the Turkish attribution, along with the multiple, centrally placed fullers. Such blade style is often found on Turkish pieces. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but I think it would benefit you the most to read as many varying opinions as possible, and then decide for yourself. Best regards, Teodor