Ethics and Policies

[fearn]

Thanks for the clarification, David and Alan.

To a large degree I agree with your points, particularly that this is a discussion forum, and it (rightfully) annoys people to be used as part of what can be properly called a "social marketing" campaign to increase the value of a keris offered elsewhere.

Likewise, I agree that fraudulent reworking is reprehensible, as I implied in my last post.

We do, however, want to make sure that the solutions to these problems aren't worse than the problems. Banning all trade in discussed keris, for example, will move the trade elsewhere, where we cannot moderate it, and likewise it will make it difficult for someone who wants to offer a keris to a group of people who will provide it a good home.

One thing that would be useful, perhaps, is a sticky of what we mean by "nice keris." That would help with any non-expert who thinks that nice is a technical designation.

Best,

F

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Fearn, I agree that this is a difficult matter to address.

Its not just the marketing aspect of this issue, but the appraisals and opinions, either from a single knowledgeable individual, or from a group of people.

Going back a long time, maybe 6 or 7 years, an opinion I gave of a keris buda was edited and then used by the seller to extract a very high price from an unknowledgeable person. The editing consisted of removing my caveats. As it turned out the buyer bought a recent production that had been very artfully aged. It was something that could correctly be called a forgery, and this is a term I am very, very careful with in respect of keris.I forget if my opinion was given on this Forum, or whether I might have given it somewhere else, but I remember very clearly the result.

I think David has probably shown the way to address this situation, and if his guidelines are followed perhaps we will see an end to this objectionable practice of dealers obtaining opinions and appraisals and then using those in their sales pitch.

David's suggestion of a "nice keris" comment I read as a throwaway line --- just a meaningless comment that carries no weight at all. However, I do agree with both you and Naga Sastra that "nice keris" could easily become "highly commended by the knowledgeable members of Keris Warung Kopi". Maybe where there is a suspicion that something less than legitimate is happening, complete silence might be the answer.

Your suggestion of a definition for a "nice keris" is something that is absolutely impossible to provide.
There is a classic thread somewhere about what a "good keris" is. It went on forever, attracted an impossible number of posts, and eventually reached no conclusion.
The keris is totally unlike any other edged weapon and formulating standards so that we can say that something is either wonderful or worthless is way beyond my ability.

It is not at all difficult to appraise each individual component of a keris, but to provide the information to do this in a canned format is again not possible. There is simply far too great a body of knowledge required to put it all down on paper as a guide.

Perhaps the answer is to trust in the wisdom and vigilance of our moderators.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

At the moment I cannot suggest a remedy for what I see as misuse of this Forum by sellers, to obtain free advertising and appraisals, but I do think that our moderators should consider this question, and that any members with opinions should make those opinions known.

The core of this problem is money as it is ultimately money that is the driving force behind dealers wanting appraisals and commentary for purposes of advancing their sales. Thus what we are dealing with here is basically sales promotion or the preparation for a such activity. As long as there is need for promoting sales in the pool of dealers there will be splashes that reach the shores of this forum also, thus this thread. Rules cannot stop attempts - they will just become better disguised and thus enforcing the rules will become an ever harder and more time consuming process for the moderators which, of course, is not wanted.

Thus the solution is simple also: money.

I propose that those in command of the forum with sufficient expertise provide a "valuation" service for the dealers who want to have commentary on their stock. This service will cost the dealer just like any outsourcing does. The forum can use that income to either develop the forum, to put together a sort of a beginners-guide-to-kerisology-booklet that can be either ordered for a moderate cost as a PDF. Or, it can be uploaded freely. I am not saying that the forum should start making money, I am merely saying that there appears to be demand for something that is not yet fulfilled and as long as that demand is out there there will be masked attempts here also.

Vacuums do not stay vacuums for long in the nature.

At some point, someone will start this kind of a service as the demand is increasing. I personally think that the best solution for all would be to satisfy this demand for appraisals on a transparent way thus getting rid of all the negative implications that follow from the apparent "masked sales promotion" and preparation for such.

Maybe this is contrary to the nature of the forum. Then again it is arguable whether this kind of a service would be contrary to the interests this forum was based to service.

If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable"?

Just thinking aloud.

PS. If this idea is not shot down immediately I also have a plan on how to execute it on a manner that does not mean excessive work nor is contrary to the ideals of the forum.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I'm going to ramble a bit here, so I would ask you to be patient with me.

In my misspent youth I had some sort of a distorted idea that one day I'd get selected in an Olympic Games team.
I was a fanatic cyclist. This fanaticism lasted a bit longer than my youth, but what I'm going to say here is relevant to that long ago time, so I'll just concentrate on that period.

At that time the Olympic Games was about equivalent to a Holy Crusade for amateur athletes. Runners, swimmers, wrestlers, cyclists, everybody who had an ounce of ambition and was an amateur sportsman had his --- or her --- eyes firmly fixed on the chance of a gold medal. If it wasn't going be a medal, well, selection in a Games team was almost as good. Just being there meant that you'd made it.

In those days Olympic athletes were all very much younger than they are today. You tended to think in terms of the Games by 22, and if you were a cyclist, you then went to Europe, rode as an independent for a couple of years, got into a professional team, and hey presto Jacques Anquetil's your uncle.

Well, that was the dream. Virtually nobody from the Land of Oz realised that dream back in the 1950's.

But we tried.

In those long ago days amateurs were amateurs.

Cyclists who wanted to ride the national selection races were told that if they took more than two weeks off work to train in the month preceeding the test races that they would automatically be disqualified. This was considered to be a professional action, and not in the spirit of amateur sport.

An Australian road champion who was selected to represent was thrown out of the Games team because it was discovered that as a 12 year old he had raced for sweepstakes with his mates around the houses where he lived. He appealed this dismissal and was grudgingly allowed back into the team.

But anyway, that was the spirit of the times. At least it was in Oz, and a few other countries.

The Eastern Block countries, notably East Germany can be credited with putting a stop to amateurism as we knew it then.When the blokes in white hats found that they were consistently getting beaten by the blokes in black hats, and those blokes in black hats were getting well paid to do the job, the white hats were taken off and thrown out the window, and amateur sportsmen were re-evaluated as political weapons. The Olympic Games became a battle ground of nations, rather than a shrine to the ideals of brotherly competition. Members of national teams became employees of the state, and were permitted to maximise monetary return for their sporting skills, subject to a few rules being followed.

This state of affairs reached its natural conclusion a few years ago when the Olympic Games, that shrine of purity to the human spirit was opened to professional sportsmen.

The Games are no longer about the striving of the individual, but are now a fully blown political battleground with the warriors supported by national budgets.

The Olympic Games are now unabashedly about power, money and political prestige --- not necessarily in that order.

Well, I guess this reflects the dominant attitude of almost everybody today. Its probably a natural outgrowth of the outdated system of continual economic growth and expansion that we all contribute to in one way or another.

I reckon the Baron must be spinning in his grave.

But I'm a bit of a dinosaur.
I add up with a pencil and paper; I shave with a straight razor; I split wood with an axe, and I use a bow saw, not a chain saw.
I also have an irrational yearning for the days when money was not equated to God, and people did things for other people simply because it made them feel good.

And that brings me to my point.

If somebody asks me for assistance, and I can give that assistance, I will give it.

As far as keris go I've given probably hundreds of free appraisals and opinions, and I've enjoyed doing it. Its something I do have a little bit of skill in, and I don't mind sharing that skill.

There is no way I could ever be a part of a cash-for-service arrangement involving keris appraisal.

However, that said --- and it took me long enough to say it --- I do not want to see this keris discussion group tainted with any of the commercial aspects of keris collecting. The primary reason I am here at all is to try to assist others in the study of the keris and its culture. In my opinion any part of the commercial aspect of keris collecting has no place at all here. There are plenty of other places for that.

In some respects I have never moved out of the 1950's. I like the idea of fellowship for the sake of fellowship, not fellowship for the sake of money. Its the old amateur ideals that I just can't get rid of.

Now I'll make a recommendation that could change your life:- sit down and watch the movie "Chariots of Fire".

[fearn]

Hi Alan,

Gotta love it when we're separated by a common language.

So far as I know, "nice keris" is a compliment, and it tends to be given more to long timers than to newbies. The sticky I had in mind was an explanation that "nice keris" has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the keris, as a caveat emptor.

[Rick]

I take it that you all have read the pertinent posts in the Swap Forum rules .
These apply to outside the forum sales also .

I rarely comment on this but I do make the rules in the Warung .
That having been said here are a few ideas and comments :

1.
If any one of our members sees even a third hand quote from here used to sell a keris or any other weapon in any venue (even PM or email) without the express consent of the commenting member, members, or mentions the Warung in a sales pitch, that seller if a member here will be permamently banned .
Please notify the Moderators via PM ; be specific; have proof .

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?

3.
I would also suggest that those who endlessly offer these 'discussion' keris without taking any other part in the Warung should have their motives closely examined by the Staff .
If it is found that a member is posting keris in the Warung ONLY to sell then they will be banned .

We will not be used as a sales catalogue; ever .

Bottom line; if you are here only to sell keris put them in Swap; not here !

Comments would be greatly appreciated .

[Sajen]

[QUOTE=Rick]

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?


Hello Rick,

I agree with you, Alan and David complete that posting keris for comments only by the reason to sell it isn't acceptable and that you and David have to find rules to anticipate this.
But with this 30 day rule I have my problems. I have bought not long ago a sword from Africa but I thought it's from Indonesia but I haven't be sure by this and give it to discussion. After it have been clear that it don't fit in my collection since I only collect Indonesian/Philippines I moved it direct to the swap forum for selling or swap. I don't have seen any bad by this.
I also sell things in e-bay but I am not a dealer, I thin out my collection when I want to buy something better or something I don't have and I have to do like this because I am not a rich man.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

I take it that you all have read the pertinent posts in the Swap Forum rules .
These apply to outside the forum sales also .

I rarely comment on this but I do make the rules in the Warung .
That having been said here are a few ideas and comments :

1.
If any one of our members sees even a third hand quote from here used to sell a keris or any other weapon in any venue (even PM or email) without the express consent of the commenting member, members, or mentions the Warung in a sales pitch, that seller if a member here will be permamently banned .
Please notify the Moderators via PM ; be specific; have proof .

2.
I would like to float an idea here ; how about a 30 day time limit before a keris discussed here in the Warung may be offered for sale in Swap ?

3.
I would also suggest that those who endlessly offer these 'discussion' keris without taking any other part in the Warung should have their motives closely examined by the Staff .
If it is found that a member is posting keris in the Warung ONLY to sell then they will be banned .

We will not be used as a sales catalogue; ever .

Bottom line; if you are here only to sell keris put them in Swap; not here !

Comments would be greatly appreciated .

Even for a seldom traveller on this side of the fence, this certainly sounds reasonable and yes, per concensus 90 days sounds better.

Gav

[Jussi M.]

Well Alan,

I cannot but to agree with the ideals you present - as you know already - but that is not the question, the question is, and I quote myself:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable?"

The question then is whether we can accept commercialism on this site in any form or can we not. If the answer is that we cannot accept it then the solution is simple - everybody should act as you. - Those pieces that will be put onto the market cannot be shown nor talked in public on this forum. All attempts should be shot down as the there cannot be a blurry line of what is and what is not acceptable.

This means that the principle that this forum is all about the gathering and transfer of keris related knowledge is to be enforced ruthlessly. What I cannot see possible is to have a some sort of a middle ground. - It just does not work like that. Commercialism then either has to be banned completely or freed completely and let the public decide what is and is not acceptable. Everything in between is doomed to fail.

The question basically is then what is the reason for the forums existence?

When that is outlined on a clear and concise manner the rest is easy. There is no way that all opinions could be addressed satisfactorily as our motives for being here differ. A forum has to be something for somebody. It cannot be everything for everybody. The wider the audience wanted, the looser the rules have to be. The tighter the grip the smaller the audience that accepts such a firm control.

I think it would be best to address what is the reason for this forums existence and then make decisions based on that regarding the acceptance or banning of commercial elements.

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .

Thanks,

J.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .

Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.
Like Alan, i am here to share knowledge and learn from others. What i know (or think i know) i am always willing to quite freely share. What i do not know i am always willing to listen to and learn. This is the mission, i believe, of this forum, to freely exchange thoughts and knowledge about keris and the culture of keris. I personally have no intention, desire or inclination to ever run an appraisal-for-hire aspect of this site and i seriously doubt that any other knowledgeable members will be interested in such a undertaking either. Besides all of the afore mentioned reasons why there is also the extremely practical one that you simply cannot give a truly accurate appraisal of a keris without examining the item firsthand. Photos are just not good enough to make definitive judgments of certain aspects of keris. If someone else wants to try to set up an internet site that provides this service then i say more power to them. I would personally take any assessment coming from such a site with one huge grain of salt.
I also must point out that the goal of this forum is not necessarily to fill the needs of the lowest common denominator of keris collectors in order to gain the largest membership possible. It is the free exchange of thoughts, ideas and knowledge of keris and keris culture between collectors of a like interest. It is to grow our understanding of the keris and the culture that supports it so that we might better grasp it's place in that society and in human history and to discuss what is happening in the world of crafting high-end art keris in present day. I do not see this as a place to appraise monetary value of keris, which in and of itself is both a tricky and highly subjective thing. So if you are a dealer whose sole purpose for being a member here is to present keris that are intended for sale then you are indeed in the wrong place. This does not mean that members who also sell keris are not welcome here. We have many who are regular, productive contributors who have never attempted to present keris for sale on this forum. And there are a few who have never even used the Swap Forum to sell an item other than to post a link to their sales site. They understand the purpose of this forum and show great respect for it and i think that in doing so they have also shown their high level of integrity and honesty as dealers, a very valuable commodity in my book. For some reason i trust a dealer more who isn't always trying to push their items on me like a sneaky used car salesman.
Rick has presented 3 additional guidelines to address this issue which i fully support. I would also add that if you do try to sell something in Swap after the 30 day waiting period that it should be clear that you can in no way, shape or form provide a link in your sales thread to the previous discussion on the forum. In other words, you cannot use the comments of other forum members to promote the sale of your keris unless you receive express permission from every single person who participated in that thread.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by David

Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.

If you ask for open discussion and opinions why don´t you welcome them?

Do we want it or not, most people here are more or less continuously on the look out for new additions to their collections. It would be for the benefit of the unexperienced collector to have some sort of reference that the new addition that he is considering is not a lemon but as a worthy an addition as can be judged from two dimensional pictures on the www.

Yes, for granted a wise collector buys the seller but given the nature of the keris it is many a times that even the most honest of sellers is selling something that he think is X only to find out (if it is found out) later that it actually was Y or Z. - Not all vendors have the grade and understanding of, say Mr. Maisey´s.

If I am buying a new addition to my watch collection and I am not 100% sure of what I am dealing with never mind who the seller, I will post pictures on the forums and ask for the opinion of the more seasoned collectors who are experts on the model in question.

Yes. Watches are nothing like the keris for a myriad of reasons, but the risks in acquiring them on the internet are not very different from each other.

Why cannot a collector ask for the opinion of a more seasoned collector outside the forum, well, of course there is nothing to stop him or her for doing that. Is it not how ever natural to ask something of this nature on the forum dedicated for the items in question?

I understand that opening the door for something like this might bring along unwanted side effects. It might however also ignite the motivation for the beginning collectors to seek for a deeper understanding that is the norm of most postings.

If we want this place to be a completely free zone of all having to do with commerce that is more than OK for me. I just voiced an alternative possibility, no biggie.

Thanks,

J

[fearn]

Hi David and Rick,

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

As all of you know, I'm not a seller or a much of a collector, so I'll use myself as an example: Suppose I post new something here, and ask where it's from. Someone says, "Nice keris. I think it's from Bali."

A week later, my fiancee finds out I bought it, and hits the roof, saying that we'd agreed to spend money on the house first, not on toys, and we don't have room for it anyway (this happens to be mostly true). I decide to sell it on eBay. "For sale, nice keris, probably from Bali. Starting bid US$40."

I will be banned if I didn't get permission to quote whoever it was.

Or I can lie and say it's an excellent keris from Java, US$200, and be okay???

And how does me having permission work, anyway? I have to email the moderator before I put up the item for sale? Or do I get banned first, and then have to defend myself by forwarding emails and hoping you believe that I didn't just write them myself?

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders. I would be happier if there was a procedure in place for dealing with potential offenders too, but that is a lot of work.