Ethics and Policies

[David]

Fearn i think that perhaps you are missing the point here. Certainly many collectors at some point in time sell off parts of their collections, either because they are trading up, need a little disposable cash or have just become bored with a particular item. I see nothing wrong with that and if such is the case we have the swap forum in which to facilitate those transactions. But this is first and foremost a forum for collectors to discuss and learn from one another through the sharing of information and, if we choose, images of our various collections. It is not a marketplace.
The problem we are discussing here is not collectors who sell parts off their collections. It is dealers who become members here for the sole purpose of selling keris. You may not be fully aware of them since keris is not you main interest of collection, but it is very clear to those of us who spend most of our time on this side of the forum boards and who mainly collect keris.
As for reworking keris, the question at hand is indeed a matter of fraud. When a dealer presents a composite keris in the forum with the hopes of attracting a buyer and makes no effort whatsoever to inform members what parts are new, used, aged or whatever the object is indeed to deceive through the act of omission. Sometimes when pressed for info the dealer will even go so far as to suggest something like "well, i don't know, but people have told me the blade is 17th century" when it is clear to knowledgeable members that it is more likely a contemporary aged piece. Properly staining a keris is not what we are talking about here or even fixing fittings. That is restoration. But putting a newly carved (but aged to look old) ivory hilt on and old blade and trying to pass it off as an original old hilt is a deception. Adding new fittings on to an old sheath and trying to pass that sheath off as original is a deception. Calling someone out on such a deception, especially based solely of photos, is not always all that easy.
Bottom line, if you are a collector who needs some extra cash take it to the swap. Don't post it first on the main forum trying to lure buyers. If you posted it last year and are now trying to sell it that is another issue. It is not the kind of sales that we are discussing here at the moment.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, you have identified the problem exactly:-

what can be done?

none of us have a crystal ball so that we can identify with certainty the keris presented "for comment" that are destined to offered in the immediate future for sale.

yes, our members here can, to a degree, protect themselves by using a little bit of caution, but there are many keris collectors in the world who do not belong to, and who very seldom look at our discussions. A lot of these people are being regularly taken advantage of by unethical dealers. I know this with certainty because not one week would pass without contact from somebody seeking an opinion on something he has just purchased, or is considering purchase of from a dealer somewhere on the other side of the world. Sometimes the sales blurb that goes with the keris offered for sale includes comments taken from Forum discussions.

Fearn, I can understand your point of view. There can be no argument that the commercial aspects of collection, including keris collection, are important. With the keris we are dealing with something that is to many of us an investment vehicle, so maybe it is perfectly legitimate to discuss value and the things that determine that value.

Maybe.

But as I understand it, this was not one of the prime objectives of our Keris Warung Kopi when it was set up. I believe that we were trying to create a place for open discussion and encouragement of study of the keris. Once the mighty $$$$ gets a foothold, it tends to pollute everything else.

I will admit, my views of this whole matter are a little slanted.

I started to buy keris 50 odd years ago, and for 40 odd years I have been buying from Indonesian dealers.

The volume that I buy effectively makes me a part of the Indonesian keris trade.

I have an intimate knowledge of the way in which this trade works.

I also have an interest in goldfish.

I makes me feel very uncomfortable when I see goldfish swimming in the same pond with sharks.

Particularly when the goldfish cannot see the sharks.

However, I do think that this matter is one that we should all express an opinion on, if we have one.

Any more opinions out there?

[Battara]

I hope this does not affect those of us collectors who ask for comments, and then at a later date decide to change our minds and sell the piece.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think David just clarified that issue, Battara.

[Naga Sasra]

Any more opinions out there?

Yes, but they have already been mentioned, however, in my simple mind we are not doing any present or future collector of Keris any favor's by the comment "nice piece" and leave it is that.

From what I have been able to see in past or present postings, the dealers (not the collector thinning out or making an effort to better a collection) are seeking approval and listing material for what they are about to list elsewhere. If we give them a nod and say "nice piece", that for them translate to a fine piece and will eventually be listed as such elsewhere.

Here my concern is for the beginning collector, who based on the listing will be buying a piece which may be an assembled piece not what it is advertised to be. In fact we should be aware of a potential future listing that include the phrase "as advertised in the Vikingsword Keris Forum" scary is it not.

I also concur, deal only with dealers that you trust, I also recognise the dealers are entitled to a cup of rice a day and they most likely do not see anything wrong in what they do, after all its just business as usual.

However, if we point out all faults as we see them, will the dealers keep coming back for more, perhaps not.

The simple solution would of cause be the dealers listing their pieces directly and strictly in the Swap Forum.

Just my opinion

[Gavin Nugent]

Some very valid points and well written by all.

Some idle rambling from me in no particular order to share some insight to my own personal intents for all to better understand. This insight may reflect true for other people out there too, some though are just focused on the cold hard commercial aspect of it all and have no emotional connection to what goes through their hands.

I by default fall in to the category of "dealer" though I use the term loosely and dislike the word as that is what I do as a hobby not a full time business. I have a great day job that keeps me very busy and a young family that also keep me very busy too.

I established the commercial side of things to share much of what I found when looking Chinese arms and to support my collecting interests in Chinese weaponry, also to keep it all separate from the family monetary commitments.
This interest has grown a little in to other fields such as select Indian, Borneo, Burmese and other SEA items including the Painted keris I recently posted.
I posted the nice keris as I like to share and like many others here I like to share some of the more unusual pieces people might not often get a chance to see like a Sosun Patta, The Sadap I have, the painted Bali Keris, the recent Kampalin etc. In time my tastes may spread further rather than the sole focus on Chinese arms that once was.

Besides my fields of interest I have helped many here enhance their collections too and always with gratitude between each other. On a face to face interpersonal relationship I have also given away pieces to special people in my life even though I might only see them once every five to ten years...these are just a few aspects of what I do and why I do it.

Spread it around is one belief I have, besides gifts I have also offered trade and or monies for others more learned in some subjects to better describe items for some vendors who come to me. Some are happy to help, others never reply, some lovely individuals help because we help each other and like to share too.
One cannot just take take take; it has to be shared around. Some do well know I have some pieces that I would never part with for love or money either, some I will never publish on the net as they are the focus of study that may with a little guidance turn in to an article.

As I expressed to a good friend in Europe the other day who is also a member here and also to Lee some time back, I only offer pieces from my own collections for discussion, no linking to a page with items for sale, no water mark advertising on images etc. I did once ask about then sell a piece on the forum as it came in a group lot and curiosity got the better of me but I knew the bad taste it left in some people’s mouths and being a member of the community I will never do that again.
Sure one can never guarantee taste will never change and things won’t be sold on, that needs to be considered a given in today’s economic climate and trading up as mentioned above is another reason but for me it would only be a last resort to cater for a family disaster or similar.

I will enjoy reading further about this subject.

Best

Gav

[fearn]

Thanks for the clarification, David and Alan.

To a large degree I agree with your points, particularly that this is a discussion forum, and it (rightfully) annoys people to be used as part of what can be properly called a "social marketing" campaign to increase the value of a keris offered elsewhere.

Likewise, I agree that fraudulent reworking is reprehensible, as I implied in my last post.

We do, however, want to make sure that the solutions to these problems aren't worse than the problems. Banning all trade in discussed keris, for example, will move the trade elsewhere, where we cannot moderate it, and likewise it will make it difficult for someone who wants to offer a keris to a group of people who will provide it a good home.

One thing that would be useful, perhaps, is a sticky of what we mean by "nice keris." That would help with any non-expert who thinks that nice is a technical designation.

Best,

F

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Fearn, I agree that this is a difficult matter to address.

Its not just the marketing aspect of this issue, but the appraisals and opinions, either from a single knowledgeable individual, or from a group of people.

Going back a long time, maybe 6 or 7 years, an opinion I gave of a keris buda was edited and then used by the seller to extract a very high price from an unknowledgeable person. The editing consisted of removing my caveats. As it turned out the buyer bought a recent production that had been very artfully aged. It was something that could correctly be called a forgery, and this is a term I am very, very careful with in respect of keris.I forget if my opinion was given on this Forum, or whether I might have given it somewhere else, but I remember very clearly the result.

I think David has probably shown the way to address this situation, and if his guidelines are followed perhaps we will see an end to this objectionable practice of dealers obtaining opinions and appraisals and then using those in their sales pitch.

David's suggestion of a "nice keris" comment I read as a throwaway line --- just a meaningless comment that carries no weight at all. However, I do agree with both you and Naga Sastra that "nice keris" could easily become "highly commended by the knowledgeable members of Keris Warung Kopi". Maybe where there is a suspicion that something less than legitimate is happening, complete silence might be the answer.

Your suggestion of a definition for a "nice keris" is something that is absolutely impossible to provide.
There is a classic thread somewhere about what a "good keris" is. It went on forever, attracted an impossible number of posts, and eventually reached no conclusion.
The keris is totally unlike any other edged weapon and formulating standards so that we can say that something is either wonderful or worthless is way beyond my ability.

It is not at all difficult to appraise each individual component of a keris, but to provide the information to do this in a canned format is again not possible. There is simply far too great a body of knowledge required to put it all down on paper as a guide.

Perhaps the answer is to trust in the wisdom and vigilance of our moderators.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

At the moment I cannot suggest a remedy for what I see as misuse of this Forum by sellers, to obtain free advertising and appraisals, but I do think that our moderators should consider this question, and that any members with opinions should make those opinions known.

The core of this problem is money as it is ultimately money that is the driving force behind dealers wanting appraisals and commentary for purposes of advancing their sales. Thus what we are dealing with here is basically sales promotion or the preparation for a such activity. As long as there is need for promoting sales in the pool of dealers there will be splashes that reach the shores of this forum also, thus this thread. Rules cannot stop attempts - they will just become better disguised and thus enforcing the rules will become an ever harder and more time consuming process for the moderators which, of course, is not wanted.

Thus the solution is simple also: money.

I propose that those in command of the forum with sufficient expertise provide a "valuation" service for the dealers who want to have commentary on their stock. This service will cost the dealer just like any outsourcing does. The forum can use that income to either develop the forum, to put together a sort of a beginners-guide-to-kerisology-booklet that can be either ordered for a moderate cost as a PDF. Or, it can be uploaded freely. I am not saying that the forum should start making money, I am merely saying that there appears to be demand for something that is not yet fulfilled and as long as that demand is out there there will be masked attempts here also.

Vacuums do not stay vacuums for long in the nature.

At some point, someone will start this kind of a service as the demand is increasing. I personally think that the best solution for all would be to satisfy this demand for appraisals on a transparent way thus getting rid of all the negative implications that follow from the apparent "masked sales promotion" and preparation for such.

Maybe this is contrary to the nature of the forum. Then again it is arguable whether this kind of a service would be contrary to the interests this forum was based to service.

If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable"?

Just thinking aloud.

PS. If this idea is not shot down immediately I also have a plan on how to execute it on a manner that does not mean excessive work nor is contrary to the ideals of the forum.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I'm going to ramble a bit here, so I would ask you to be patient with me.

In my misspent youth I had some sort of a distorted idea that one day I'd get selected in an Olympic Games team.
I was a fanatic cyclist. This fanaticism lasted a bit longer than my youth, but what I'm going to say here is relevant to that long ago time, so I'll just concentrate on that period.

At that time the Olympic Games was about equivalent to a Holy Crusade for amateur athletes. Runners, swimmers, wrestlers, cyclists, everybody who had an ounce of ambition and was an amateur sportsman had his --- or her --- eyes firmly fixed on the chance of a gold medal. If it wasn't going be a medal, well, selection in a Games team was almost as good. Just being there meant that you'd made it.

In those days Olympic athletes were all very much younger than they are today. You tended to think in terms of the Games by 22, and if you were a cyclist, you then went to Europe, rode as an independent for a couple of years, got into a professional team, and hey presto Jacques Anquetil's your uncle.

Well, that was the dream. Virtually nobody from the Land of Oz realised that dream back in the 1950's.

But we tried.

In those long ago days amateurs were amateurs.

Cyclists who wanted to ride the national selection races were told that if they took more than two weeks off work to train in the month preceeding the test races that they would automatically be disqualified. This was considered to be a professional action, and not in the spirit of amateur sport.

An Australian road champion who was selected to represent was thrown out of the Games team because it was discovered that as a 12 year old he had raced for sweepstakes with his mates around the houses where he lived. He appealed this dismissal and was grudgingly allowed back into the team.

But anyway, that was the spirit of the times. At least it was in Oz, and a few other countries.

The Eastern Block countries, notably East Germany can be credited with putting a stop to amateurism as we knew it then.When the blokes in white hats found that they were consistently getting beaten by the blokes in black hats, and those blokes in black hats were getting well paid to do the job, the white hats were taken off and thrown out the window, and amateur sportsmen were re-evaluated as political weapons. The Olympic Games became a battle ground of nations, rather than a shrine to the ideals of brotherly competition. Members of national teams became employees of the state, and were permitted to maximise monetary return for their sporting skills, subject to a few rules being followed.

This state of affairs reached its natural conclusion a few years ago when the Olympic Games, that shrine of purity to the human spirit was opened to professional sportsmen.

The Games are no longer about the striving of the individual, but are now a fully blown political battleground with the warriors supported by national budgets.

The Olympic Games are now unabashedly about power, money and political prestige --- not necessarily in that order.

Well, I guess this reflects the dominant attitude of almost everybody today. Its probably a natural outgrowth of the outdated system of continual economic growth and expansion that we all contribute to in one way or another.

I reckon the Baron must be spinning in his grave.

But I'm a bit of a dinosaur.
I add up with a pencil and paper; I shave with a straight razor; I split wood with an axe, and I use a bow saw, not a chain saw.
I also have an irrational yearning for the days when money was not equated to God, and people did things for other people simply because it made them feel good.

And that brings me to my point.

If somebody asks me for assistance, and I can give that assistance, I will give it.

As far as keris go I've given probably hundreds of free appraisals and opinions, and I've enjoyed doing it. Its something I do have a little bit of skill in, and I don't mind sharing that skill.

There is no way I could ever be a part of a cash-for-service arrangement involving keris appraisal.

However, that said --- and it took me long enough to say it --- I do not want to see this keris discussion group tainted with any of the commercial aspects of keris collecting. The primary reason I am here at all is to try to assist others in the study of the keris and its culture. In my opinion any part of the commercial aspect of keris collecting has no place at all here. There are plenty of other places for that.

In some respects I have never moved out of the 1950's. I like the idea of fellowship for the sake of fellowship, not fellowship for the sake of money. Its the old amateur ideals that I just can't get rid of.

Now I'll make a recommendation that could change your life:- sit down and watch the movie "Chariots of Fire".