Gilded and painted Keris for viewing

Gavin Nugent · 19th November 2009, 01:54 AM

Great David,

I look forward to viewing it.

I agree Bali Keris do have fullers similar to this and in these positions but there are subtle differences in the flow and depth of the curves that my eyes are drawn too. It may be nothing but I thought to ask. I'll try to get some comparative images of the other Bali keris blade I have here to see if I can highlight it better. It may just be a case of the pamor on this piece making it look different.

Regards

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2009, 02:35 AM

I can see nothing unusual at all in this blade.

The garap is fair average quality for a Bali blade of this vintage. There are minor artistic shortcomings that really do not bear mention, and can simply be written off as the maker's style.

To my eyes its just a pretty usual sort of old Bali blade.

What makes the whole thing nice is the old blade + old sunggingan in pretty good condition + the sunggingan is well preserved + the blade has what appears to be a nice old stain + the hilt is not bad either. As a total package its pretty nice and very scarce.

David · 19th November 2009, 02:45 AM

OK, i did manage to find a couple of photos that i already took of this sheath. I will have to take some more to show the whole sheath and the whole hilt. You can see the the hilt has some of the same red paint as the sheath. The pommel is similarly painted. Not in as good condition as Gav's but i think this one might be just a bit older.

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2009, 05:22 AM

Yep. Nice too.

Any of these old Bali sunggingans are very, very collectable.

Gavin Nugent · 19th November 2009, 06:07 AM

Another I secured recently, still to be posted to me, new or old I couldn't say but the wear looked honest enough without going into too much detail.

I'll submit more images when it arrives.

Thanks for posting the images David, I really enjoy looking at these pieces something the eyes can enjoy all day.

All the best Gav

PS guys, if you got em show them I would love to see more diverstity in painting or gilding.

Marcokeris · 19th November 2009, 06:08 AM

all very nice

VVV · 19th November 2009, 09:13 AM

Thanks for sharing.
Here is another, more simple, one as a reference.

Michael

Marcokeris · 19th November 2009, 12:35 PM

Very hard in Bali to find, in my experience, so nice dress.
(price ...are really very high

)

gwirya · 2nd February 2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can see nothing unusual at all in this blade.

The garap is fair average quality for a Bali blade of this vintage. There are minor artistic shortcomings that really do not bear mention, and can simply be written off as the maker's style.

To my eyes its just a pretty usual sort of old Bali blade.

What makes the whole thing nice is the old blade + old sunggingan in pretty good condition + the sunggingan is well preserved + the blade has what appears to be a nice old stain + the hilt is not bad either. As a total package its pretty nice and very scarce.

Alan, I am very interested in Bali keris, can you point out where is the minor artistic shortcomings? and what could you expect from the keris above if it is a better quality balinese keris. I know it could be subjective but I want to learn to distinguish small detail garaps that make up the "more than average" keris.

Thx

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2010, 08:35 PM

Gwirya, if I had the keris in my hand, and you were sitting beside me, yes, I could show you the things that could have been done better. However, to try to tell you in writing the individual artistic deficiencies would run to far more than I am prepared to write.

I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow.

Its just not top work from an artistic point of view.

But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

gwirya · 4th February 2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow.

Its just not top work from an artistic point of view.

But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

Alan, Which part is where there are curved lines where there should be straight lines?

Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2010, 09:28 PM

It is not as simple as that, Gwirya.

We are talking micro here, not macro. To adequately answer your question I would need to be sitting with you and point out the defects one by one, and I would be using something small and pointed to do the pointing. Good garap and artistic interpretation in a keris is all about very, very tiny things.

However, there is one area of this keris where the carving has been very badly handled, and it is big enough not to need any particular expertise to identify.

Look at the convergence of the ada-ada - blumbangan - tampingan. From an artistic perspective this is very poor work.

Defects in the kembang kacang puguk are pretty obvious too.

When I look at this blade my feeling is that the maker was struggling, his work does not flow. It is competent work, but there is no artistic feeling to it.

I'm not going to comment any further on this blade.

I did not want to make these comments that I have made. If I had wanted to comment thus, and if I had thought it would have served a useful purpose I would have commented in my earlier posts.

This type of criticism should be reserved for blades where it is obvious that the maker has attempted art.

The maker of this blade has not attempted art and has simply produced a blade of the required form, with no particular attention to art or detail. He has made a weapon.

It is very unfair to criticise something for not being that which it did not set out to be.

Gavin Nugent · 4th February 2010, 10:22 PM

Alan,

Thank you for your wonderful and very well worded input on the subject of this Keris.

Since Gwirya has come to this posting asking these questions, in the interest of learning a little more myself I too have a few questions that are or are not answered easily.

Are you able to point to visual aids within the forum pages that can show the "change" for want of a better word, where art and the weapon meet as one? A visual aid may show an essence within lines and features that can be used as a comparision to better understand subtle differences that are hard to speak of.
In an artist light, does the painting and gilding sit in line with the lack of artistic detail to the blade or does it "mask" these subtle shortcomings of an artistic nature.

Thank you for your learned input.

Gav

19th November 2009, 01:54 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice to see another Great David, I look forward to viewing it. I agree Bali Keris do have fullers similar to this and in these positions but there are subtle differences in the flow and depth of the curves that my eyes are drawn too. It may be nothing but I thought to ask. I'll try to get some comparative images of the other Bali keris blade I have here to see if I can highlight it better. It may just be a case of the pamor on this piece making it look different. Regards Gav

19th November 2009, 02:45 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	OK, i did manage to find a couple of photos that i already took of this sheath. I will have to take some more to show the whole sheath and the whole hilt. You can see the the hilt has some of the same red paint as the sheath. The pommel is similarly painted. Not in as good condition as Gav's but i think this one might be just a bit older. Attached Images

19th November 2009, 06:07 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another painted scabbard and hilt Another I secured recently, still to be posted to me, new or old I couldn't say but the wear looked honest enough without going into too much detail. I'll submit more images when it arrives. Thanks for posting the images David, I really enjoy looking at these pieces something the eyes can enjoy all day. All the best Gav PS guys, if you got em show them I would love to see more diverstity in painting or gilding. Attached Images

19th November 2009, 06:08 AM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	all very nice Last edited by Marcokeris; 19th November 2009 at 12:38 PM.

19th November 2009, 09:13 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for sharing. Here is another, more simple, one as a reference. Michael Attached Images

19th November 2009, 02:35 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I can see nothing unusual at all in this blade. The garap is fair average quality for a Bali blade of this vintage. There are minor artistic shortcomings that really do not bear mention, and can simply be written off as the maker's style. To my eyes its just a pretty usual sort of old Bali blade. What makes the whole thing nice is the old blade + old sunggingan in pretty good condition + the sunggingan is well preserved + the blade has what appears to be a nice old stain + the hilt is not bad either. As a total package its pretty nice and very scarce.

19th November 2009, 05:22 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Yep. Nice too. Any of these old Bali sunggingans are very, very collectable.

19th November 2009, 12:35 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Very hard in Bali to find, in my experience, so nice dress. (price ...are really very high )

2nd February 2010, 08:35 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Gwirya, if I had the keris in my hand, and you were sitting beside me, yes, I could show you the things that could have been done better. However, to try to tell you in writing the individual artistic deficiencies would run to far more than I am prepared to write. I can make an overall comment, and that is there are curved lines where there should be straight lines, there is a lack of definition, there was probably insufficient time spent on layout before the actual carving started, there is inconsistency in repeated features, there is an overall lack of flow. Its just not top work from an artistic point of view. But as I said, these are minor deficiencies and really don't bear mention. Not all makers were great artists, and they did not need to be.

4th February 2010, 09:28 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	It is not as simple as that, Gwirya. We are talking micro here, not macro. To adequately answer your question I would need to be sitting with you and point out the defects one by one, and I would be using something small and pointed to do the pointing. Good garap and artistic interpretation in a keris is all about very, very tiny things. However, there is one area of this keris where the carving has been very badly handled, and it is big enough not to need any particular expertise to identify. Look at the convergence of the ada-ada - blumbangan - tampingan. From an artistic perspective this is very poor work. Defects in the kembang kacang puguk are pretty obvious too. When I look at this blade my feeling is that the maker was struggling, his work does not flow. It is competent work, but there is no artistic feeling to it. I'm not going to comment any further on this blade. I did not want to make these comments that I have made. If I had wanted to comment thus, and if I had thought it would have served a useful purpose I would have commented in my earlier posts. This type of criticism should be reserved for blades where it is obvious that the maker has attempted art. The maker of this blade has not attempted art and has simply produced a blade of the required form, with no particular attention to art or detail. He has made a weapon. It is very unfair to criticise something for not being that which it did not set out to be.

4th February 2010, 10:22 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Great input Alan, Thank you for your wonderful and very well worded input on the subject of this Keris. Since Gwirya has come to this posting asking these questions, in the interest of learning a little more myself I too have a few questions that are or are not answered easily. Are you able to point to visual aids within the forum pages that can show the "change" for want of a better word, where art and the weapon meet as one? A visual aid may show an essence within lines and features that can be used as a comparision to better understand subtle differences that are hard to speak of. In an artist light, does the painting and gilding sit in line with the lack of artistic detail to the blade or does it "mask" these subtle shortcomings of an artistic nature. Thank you for your learned input. Gav