Moro hilt, a question of region.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Spunjer,

I ask due to the reputation and data that comes with this piece.
Lengthy study still needs to be carried out to fully confirm this with accuracy and a number of years of decent still need to be accounted for and confirmed.

Although true origins are not yet fully confirmed, from the data available, it is very plausible given the facts that a Kampalin of this quality (despite not being bone or ivory) with the scabbard shaped and carved as it is, supports it is a sword of Nobility, see notes by Cato, page 58 Moro Swords, paragraph 3 & 4.

What do others out there think to the origins?

Regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

I've had a look closer to home (Thanks Jim), Jim referred me to the link to Krieger's work found on this forum. See plate 7.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/krieger.html

Can anyone here provide me with larger images of these plates by Krieger? The Kampalins in the images and data that comes the image in plate 7 indicates this piece presented by me is also from the Maranao people.

Gav

[Spunjer]

hi gav,

fair enough. i'm with you on the possibility that, without the usual embellishment associated with datu/sultan, this particular kampy coul've been a chief's. on similar note, as per cato's book, there's a picture of tausugs posing, on page 6. the person in the middle, with the barung drawn out, is the sultan's brother, but if you notice , his barung is the type we normally regard as commoners'.
if at all possible, could you please post the data and reputation that came with this kampy? it might shed a light as to the origin of this kampy. as i've posted earlier, we can just guess as to the provenance, but with data and the manner it was acquired, it could speak volumes, and we'd be much closer to the truth.
regards

[ariel]

Folks, please enlighten me and straighten me out!

I looked at the reference above ( National Museum, Herbert Krieger's descriptions)) and got totally confused.

Plate 7, ## 2 and
3: what I always thought was a Panabas, is called Talibong

Plate 9, ##2-5:same.
#6: what I thought was a Garab, is called Pira.

Plate 12:
#1: pira is called pira
#6: garab is also called pira

Do I have to re-learn everything I managed to know about Moro weapons?????

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks, please enlighten me and straighten me out!

Ariel,

Can I suggest a Buddhist retreat and a good Chiropractor

Seriously though...I would not get to put off by old plates, I am certain knowledge has come a long way since 1926 and the most likely explanation as to why that I can think of is there was just not the knowledge base there is today and terms were more generic???

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

The few kampilans I have seen, including the one I had, were quite simple overall without extraneous embellishment aside from the carved hilt, and often a simple metal staple on the guard to which a piece of cloth was attached.

I see what Ariel means on the terminology in the 1926 article, and it does look like there must have been some confusion in terms applied. I think one of the most puzzling terms regarding Philippine weapons that I can recall in my brief experience with them was 'bolo'. After the Spanish-American war I think the term was used for every Filipino weapon from swords to small knives by American GI's souvenier troves.

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

These Tiger bells were found all over Asia, from Pakistan to Siberia to Indonesia.
I think the bell's attached on weapons, should serve as amulets.

Besides amulets, tiger bells were used as musical instruments, animal bells (horse bells and cat bells, dogs bells and yak bells), shamanism, dance bells, amulets on wayang puppets, money.

I got it from this internet source. A lot more written about tiger bells can be found there: http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/bells.htm




Maurice

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

hi jim,
just a hunch, but the kampilan on the other thread is similar to what cato referred to as a rare type, and i believe not too many of those types have been posted anywhere. the odd handle doesn't necessarily denote timorese, or mindanao, rather it's just another expression of a kampilan hilt.
somewhat similar, but provenanced in mindanao, is this one from cotabato, circa 1899:

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

maurice's link is spot on on this...

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

some staples do have mailed handguard, although it's not too common.

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

datu is indeed a broad term, either acquired by birth right, or bestowed upon. basically, datus are leader of a certain clan. some datus were well off, while some were very rich and/or influential, enabling them to have dozens of followers. bestowed upon meaning it could be granted to a deserving person. a good example is pedro cuevas, a tagalog convict who escaped a spanish prison in zamboanga in the 1800's and crossed the basilan. he eventually converted into islam, killed a datu of that island in a duel and later on became known as datu kalun.
weapon embellishment doesn't necessarily translate to their status. his retinue might carry a kris embellished with silver and ivory, but it doesn't mean he "outranks" another datu in his tribe who has a banati pommeled kris.

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

as i've mentioned on my earlier post, at this point it's difficult to i'd a certain moro kampilan without hard provenance. i wouldn't be surprise if certain features would be indicative of what tribe they belong to, but even then, due to the proximity of the maranao and its subtribes, and the maguidanao, there's bound to have influences between the two. hope this helps...

[Battara]

Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend.

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice and Spunjer,
Thank you so much guys! for taking the time to post this most helpful information, which really helps as I try to assimilate an understanding of these. I always admire the outstanding command you guys and the others have on these and other fields I have never gone into in much degree, and appreciate the detail.

All the best,
Jim