two Dutch medieval daggers

KuKulzA28 · 11th November 2009, 08:36 PM

Nice daggers!
Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose?
It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

cornelistromp · 11th November 2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Nice daggers!
Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose?
It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

HI,

the nuts of the Ballock handle (it is the original wooden handle on this dagger)
stop the hand from slanting off similar as a pair of guillons.

the blade is an Armour piercing blade with a reinforced diamant shaped point.
the blade is asymmetrical so it makes it possible to use 2 hands for the killing stab.

best regards

Marc · 12th November 2009, 05:26 PM

The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons.

Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a crossguard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

cornelistromp · 12th November 2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons.

Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a cross-guard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

Hi Marc,

thank you for the compliment for the ballock.

RE: the quillon dagger I think it is just you

Don't let the condition fool you, it is also 100% genuine. the authenticity has been confirmed by the curator of the Dutch army museum.
This is how it is found in the the river Rijn. (only the robe grip is added)

it is not a genuine pommel but a medieval dagger wheel-pommel 3cmx2,5cm
I also found the same type of small dagger wheel-pommel offered at an arms dealer and more convincing a similar dagger is published in Francis laking part 3.
This type of blade of hollow triangular section can be found on the majority of the same period rondel daggers.(around 1400)

I will post some pictures in order to explain.

see picture Francis Laking part 3 page 3 guillon dagger fig 728 , this dagger from the guildhall museum has the same pommel and same guillons however a longer grip and a diamond shaped blade.

The construction of the guillon; the way the blade fits into the guillon is a feature of medieval swords. On later 15thC examples the shoulder of the blade rests on the guillons.

Best regards

Matchlock · 12th November 2009, 10:47 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I have gone quite crazy over those fascinating pictures - man, I wish these beauties were mine! Personally, I like the ballock dagger (Nierendolch) best for its wonderfully staged blade and great condition of preservation.

Thank you so much for the overwhelming close ups and the documentation, buddy! Very good job for all uf us.

Best wishes from Bavaria,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2009, 06:45 AM

Outstanding pieces Cornelis!
On the quillon dagger I think I would have joined with Marc in his very reasonable observation based on the photos alone, and without the data posted afterwards. The material you provided after his observation is most impressive in illustrating the information on the actual disposition of the weapon. The detail on the provenance and authentication from the Dutch Museum are also impressive additions. A remarkable dagger.

The 'ballock' dagger is also most impressive, as these are I believe reasonably rare even without this unusual blade form. I had not heard of a dagger used with two hands in stabbing aming these types. What I do recall of these 'ballock' daggers is that they were once known as 'dudgeon' daggers for the type of boxwood typically used for thier hilts, if I remember correctly.
Also, the collectors of the mid 19th century with prudish correctness (the Victorian version of political correctness) saw fit to avoid the suggestive 'ballock' term by using the less colorful anatomic term, 'kidney' daggers

Best regards,
Jim

cornelistromp · 13th November 2009, 10:54 AM

Hello Jim Hello Michael,

thank you for the kind comments , the great knowledge of arms and armour of you two, always gives me a positive drive

but be careful the more you learn and know the more you get isolated.

I would like to point out an aspect of the weapon forum!
I don't think that a forum is a place to judge or condemn a weapon! for the simple reason that there always will be a lack in information. Without
scientific tests doubters will continue to doubt as we all have seen in the case of the sword of Edward III .

In general my point is:
there is not enough information in any forum to make a definate conclusion on a weapon's provenance by pictures alone.To do so will in any way cause damage or influence further study.

Ewart Oakeshott in records of the medieval sword;
The student of arms should never be put off on the grounds that a sword appears to be "too good to be true " . This is a trap
into which the compimlers of sales catalogs have resoundingly fallen in the past . Any object of antiquity has to be assessed on its own merits if it has no well-authenticated provenance . If you meet a fine , beautifully preserved medieval sword in the sale room , or offered by a dealer , don't jib at it if it looks smooth and black without rust pits-or even if it has been cleaned and the and the patina of ferrite or goethite cleaned off. Because it is smart and in good condition doesn't mean that it is a modern fake . On the other hand , there are superb modern fakes ... One has to use ones'nose' and ones common -sense. But to reject a sword as a dud either because it looks too good , or because somebody tell you he/she has "never seen one like it " is absurd . If one considers the hundreds of thousands of swords which must have been made between c.400BC and AD1525-probably millions- unless one can honestly say one has seen all of them , it is not honest to damn something because "I have never seen one like this ". There were infinite variations of detail in the style of pommels,crosses , blades and inscriptions, most of them according to some medieval person's own particular fancy . One has to remember what a tiny percentage of these thousands of swords are available for study now , The number grows all the time, but it is still an incredibly small percentage .

kind regards from Holland

11th November 2009, 08:36 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Nice daggers! Does the bollock-style handle serve any special purpose? It's blade is also very interesting since it is asymmetrical.

12th November 2009, 05:26 PM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The ballock dagger looks fantastic, indeed. The blade is peculiar but not unheard of in this type of weapons. Now the other dagger... well, it's just my opinion, but it suspiciously looks like a put-together with what could be a genuine medieval pommel, a crossguard about which I couldn't pass a reliable judgement without examining it more closely, and a blade that looks like a cut-down blade from a 18th c. smallsword, down to the style of inlaid decoration... maybe it's just me...

12th November 2009, 10:47 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I have gone quite crazy over those fascinating pictures - man, I wish these beauties were mine! Personally, I like the ballock dagger (Nierendolch) best for its wonderfully staged blade and great condition of preservation. Thank you so much for the overwhelming close ups and the documentation, buddy! Very good job for all uf us. Best wishes from Bavaria, Michael

13th November 2009, 06:45 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	Outstanding pieces Cornelis! On the quillon dagger I think I would have joined with Marc in his very reasonable observation based on the photos alone, and without the data posted afterwards. The material you provided after his observation is most impressive in illustrating the information on the actual disposition of the weapon. The detail on the provenance and authentication from the Dutch Museum are also impressive additions. A remarkable dagger. The 'ballock' dagger is also most impressive, as these are I believe reasonably rare even without this unusual blade form. I had not heard of a dagger used with two hands in stabbing aming these types. What I do recall of these 'ballock' daggers is that they were once known as 'dudgeon' daggers for the type of boxwood typically used for thier hilts, if I remember correctly. Also, the collectors of the mid 19th century with prudish correctness (the Victorian version of political correctness) saw fit to avoid the suggestive 'ballock' term by using the less colorful anatomic term, 'kidney' daggers Best regards, Jim

13th November 2009, 10:54 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hello Jim Hello Michael, thank you for the kind comments , the great knowledge of arms and armour of you two, always gives me a positive drive but be careful the more you learn and know the more you get isolated. I would like to point out an aspect of the weapon forum! I don't think that a forum is a place to judge or condemn a weapon! for the simple reason that there always will be a lack in information. Without scientific tests doubters will continue to doubt as we all have seen in the case of the sword of Edward III . In general my point is: there is not enough information in any forum to make a definate conclusion on a weapon's provenance by pictures alone.To do so will in any way cause damage or influence further study. Ewart Oakeshott in records of the medieval sword; The student of arms should never be put off on the grounds that a sword appears to be "too good to be true " . This is a trap into which the compimlers of sales catalogs have resoundingly fallen in the past . Any object of antiquity has to be assessed on its own merits if it has no well-authenticated provenance . If you meet a fine , beautifully preserved medieval sword in the sale room , or offered by a dealer , don't jib at it if it looks smooth and black without rust pits-or even if it has been cleaned and the and the patina of ferrite or goethite cleaned off. Because it is smart and in good condition doesn't mean that it is a modern fake . On the other hand , there are superb modern fakes ... One has to use ones'nose' and ones common -sense. But to reject a sword as a dud either because it looks too good , or because somebody tell you he/she has "never seen one like it " is absurd . If one considers the hundreds of thousands of swords which must have been made between c.400BC and AD1525-probably millions- unless one can honestly say one has seen all of them , it is not honest to damn something because "I have never seen one like this ". There were infinite variations of detail in the style of pommels,crosses , blades and inscriptions, most of them according to some medieval person's own particular fancy . One has to remember what a tiny percentage of these thousands of swords are available for study now , The number grows all the time, but it is still an incredibly small percentage . kind regards from Holland