Another stab at flyssa origins

Emanuel · 22nd October 2009, 03:15 AM

Hi Fearn,

I would look closer to the falcatta as a possible antique source.

I humbly disagree with the wiki article. Varangians (Swedish and Angles and misc other Scandinavian peoples and a hefty mix of Bulgarian and misc Slavs) did not use the Rhomphaia, a Thracian weapon. There seems to be a lot of confusion in that article. All the depictions I've seen of Varangian and Byzantine equipment show straight "spada"-type double-edged swords, axes and spears. The McBride quote combines the long two-handed rhomphaia with a shield...the Thracian rhomphaia was essentially a pole arm and could not have been wielded with a shield.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm VERY comfortable discounting the Celtic hypothesis.

I tried researching the material history of the Kabyles (of whom the Iflissen - makers of the flyssa - were a tribe) and very little comes up. The many French archaeological digs reveal nothing much. There are very few traces of weapons before the early 19th century and nothing unique or remotely similar to the flyssa. I've more or less resigned myself to accept the yataghan and perhaps certain Caucasian sabres as a most likely source.

We can speculate as much as we want, but there doesn't seem to be any actual corroboration of anything. Camille Lacoste-Desjardins ("Sabres Kabyles" - a great article, I can send you a copy if you read French) had delved into the possibility of indigenous development of the flyssa and had offered some clues in the form of an ancient Lybian stele that depicts a man with something like a concave blade in hand. I saw pictures (granted, they were bad) of said stele and the relief was quite worn and nothing conclusive could be made out. Better pictures might help, or even better, a site visit.

Have a look at the Big Flyssa Thread

Best,
Emanuel

fearn · 22nd October 2009, 03:40 AM

Hi Emanuel,

You may well be right, particularly about the history of the Kabyles. Couple more bits of information:
--Looking more at the Varangians, the Norse sagas talk about them bringing home apparently foreign equipment. They were, of course, famous for their axes, but conversely, during the Dark Ages, weapons were expensive, and the Norse went to Byzantium to get rich. They were almost certainly equipped partially or wholly with Byzantine weapons.

--I'm not clear on whether the weapons referred to as Rhomphaia changed over time, but at least into Roman times, there's a tradition of single-edged long swords, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carried over.

Best,

F

kronckew · 22nd October 2009, 09:06 AM

at the beginning of the 19th c. an iflissan tourist visited sumatra an brought back a souvenir.

it so impressed his fellow tribesmen that they adopted the design

fearn · 22nd October 2009, 03:40 PM

You nailed it K!

Bryan.H · 24th October 2009, 03:48 AM

kronckew, your last post here reminded me of 'The Sinbad Voyage', by Tim Severin. The Islamic influence is spread along North Africa, The Horn of Africa, to Oman/ Yemen/ Saudi Arabia, along the maritime trading routes through to India, Sri Lanka and South east Asia. That cultural interconnection over centuries surely brought stylistic and technological influences from Islamic countries of the Middle east , through to South East asia, (along with some architectural forms, social customs, arabic language, etc etc). It's hardly suprising then that there are similarities in edged weapons where there has been cultural connections since the early middle ages.

fearn · 24th October 2009, 06:14 AM

Hi Bryan,

So you don't believe that the influence went the other way?

For all we know, the blade design came out of Mecca, and spread both ways via the Hadj.

Best,

F

kronckew · 26th October 2009, 08:50 AM

as there is evidence of far more extensive trade during the stone age than we had previously thought, i suspect that there was probably well established bi-directional trade routes between most established cultures millennia before islam. i remember the european clovis points found in north america and spain amongst others. this is of course disputed by the establishment...

22nd October 2009, 03:15 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Fearn, I would look closer to the falcatta as a possible antique source. I humbly disagree with the wiki article. Varangians (Swedish and Angles and misc other Scandinavian peoples and a hefty mix of Bulgarian and misc Slavs) did not use the Rhomphaia, a Thracian weapon. There seems to be a lot of confusion in that article. All the depictions I've seen of Varangian and Byzantine equipment show straight "spada"-type double-edged swords, axes and spears. The McBride quote combines the long two-handed rhomphaia with a shield...the Thracian rhomphaia was essentially a pole arm and could not have been wielded with a shield. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm VERY comfortable discounting the Celtic hypothesis. I tried researching the material history of the Kabyles (of whom the Iflissen - makers of the flyssa - were a tribe) and very little comes up. The many French archaeological digs reveal nothing much. There are very few traces of weapons before the early 19th century and nothing unique or remotely similar to the flyssa. I've more or less resigned myself to accept the yataghan and perhaps certain Caucasian sabres as a most likely source. We can speculate as much as we want, but there doesn't seem to be any actual corroboration of anything. Camille Lacoste-Desjardins ("Sabres Kabyles" - a great article, I can send you a copy if you read French) had delved into the possibility of indigenous development of the flyssa and had offered some clues in the form of an ancient Lybian stele that depicts a man with something like a concave blade in hand. I saw pictures (granted, they were bad) of said stele and the relief was quite worn and nothing conclusive could be made out. Better pictures might help, or even better, a site visit. Have a look at the Big Flyssa Thread Best, Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 22nd October 2009 at 03:28 AM.

24th October 2009, 03:48 AM	#5
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Not so far fetched as it sounds! kronckew, your last post here reminded me of 'The Sinbad Voyage', by Tim Severin. The Islamic influence is spread along North Africa, The Horn of Africa, to Oman/ Yemen/ Saudi Arabia, along the maritime trading routes through to India, Sri Lanka and South east Asia. That cultural interconnection over centuries surely brought stylistic and technological influences from Islamic countries of the Middle east , through to South East asia, (along with some architectural forms, social customs, arabic language, etc etc). It's hardly suprising then that there are similarities in edged weapons where there has been cultural connections since the early middle ages.

22nd October 2009, 03:40 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Emanuel, You may well be right, particularly about the history of the Kabyles. Couple more bits of information: --Looking more at the Varangians, the Norse sagas talk about them bringing home apparently foreign equipment. They were, of course, famous for their axes, but conversely, during the Dark Ages, weapons were expensive, and the Norse went to Byzantium to get rich. They were almost certainly equipped partially or wholly with Byzantine weapons. --I'm not clear on whether the weapons referred to as Rhomphaia changed over time, but at least into Roman times, there's a tradition of single-edged long swords, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carried over. Best, F

22nd October 2009, 09:06 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	at the beginning of the 19th c. an iflissan tourist visited sumatra an brought back a souvenir. it so impressed his fellow tribesmen that they adopted the design

22nd October 2009, 03:40 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	You nailed it K!

24th October 2009, 06:14 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Bryan, So you don't believe that the influence went the other way? For all we know, the blade design came out of Mecca, and spread both ways via the Hadj. Best, F

26th October 2009, 08:50 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	as there is evidence of far more extensive trade during the stone age than we had previously thought, i suspect that there was probably well established bi-directional trade routes between most established cultures millennia before islam. i remember the european clovis points found in north america and spain amongst others. this is of course disputed by the establishment...