An Extremely Rare North Italian Arquebusier's Auxiliary Armament Saber, ca. 1510-15

Matchlock · 21st October 2009, 02:03 PM

Thank you so much, Cornelis,

I am much flattered (and a bit flattened as well

) to hear that Ewart Oakeshott interpreted the stylistic late Gothic and Early Renaissance developments quite the way I have come to do by experience that includes, besides weapons, all kinds of work of art.

How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting?

Best wishes,
Michael

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 03:16 PM

How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting?

Hi Michael,

Do you mean the sword in my collection, it is not so light piece

I would date it around 1560-1570, but this one is not so easy

the shell shaped pommel with pierced holes appeared already at the end of the 15thC.
the simple hilt form with ring guard and knuckle guard with disk shape terminals
like this are seen around second quarter of the 16thC on-wards. the Counter guard with this type of "hook" and thumb guard can also be seen on many later 16thC swords (Fe Tussacks) and the same striped decoration can be found on a 1510 sword hilt published by Oakeshott in European A&A.

best regards from Holland

So what do you think Michael

Matchlock · 21st October 2009, 03:37 PM

More questions than replies, that's the way it's gotta be in schlolarly discussions ...

The 1560's would, in my opinion, mark the upper limit for your item but let me ask a friend of mine who has specialized in this field amost all of his life.

Be patient.

Best regrads as always,
Michael

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 06:34 PM

Hi Michael,

Ok, thank you

herewith a sketch of the portrait by Dosso dossi of Alfonse d'este, duke of Ferrara C.1510(Brera gallery Milan). Please have a look at the Pommeltype and hilt decoration.

the pommel is Norman type 12 and is commonly used between 1515-1535.

the tumbring counter guard of the hilt I can not explain but think 1515-1535 is too early.

best regards

Matchlock · 22nd October 2009, 02:10 PM

Hi Cornelis,

My friend thinks that your item is a Netherlandish sword (Haudegen) of about 1620, early Thirty Years' War.

I can hardly really differentiate betwen those types, except that the riveted point on the pommel is much larger on later pieces.

best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 22nd October 2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Cornelis,

My friend thinks that your item is a Netherlandish sword (Haudegen) of about 1620, early Thirty Years' War.

I can hardly really differentiate betwen those types, except that the riveted point on the pommel is much larger on later pieces.

best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

thanks for the reply.

I'm extremely sorry to say but I think your friend is wrong.
there seems to be some similarity (hilt type and pierced pommel) but when you have closer look at both of them.they are totally different swords from different periods and for different fighting techniques.

it is not Netherlandish and also definitely not a Hauwdegen

I had a few Dutch Houwers in my collection. see pic.
A houwdegen was used by foot soldiers who had limited figthing skills
therefor the houwers have very simple, blunt and wide broad blades (without fullers) and were mainly used for striking blows and with blunt points not for stabbing.
The hilt of the houwer is originally Italian design and were exported in large numbers to various countries including the Netherlands.The hilts had pommels of Norman type 46 (1600-1630) and did not have inner guards and/or thumb rings.

my Sword has a 16thC cut and thrusting blade a 16thC pommel type and a
16thC inner guard type.
The Specialists of HermannH dated it end of 16thC and Italian/steyerish .
Personally I think it is a bit earlier but due to the thumb ring around 1560-1570.
(The earliest thumb ring on a painting known is from 1577)

Pommelknob?!?
the type of big round pommelknob was in fashion in Italy mid 16thC.
CF pictures of wallace A537 and wallace A551 both dated 1550.
and of course as on the Pavia painting

best regards from Holland

Matchlock · 25th October 2009, 01:26 AM

Hi Cornelius,

Thank you so much for your both well documented and balanced arguments.

Still I beg to differ, my friend.

I have known my friend's collection and lived to see his prevailing competence in more than two decades of both museum and auction sales room discussions. I also posted parts of his collection here a while ago. My humble number of three edged weapons - ca. 1510, 1520-5 and 1600-10 in my opinion - , plus four fine hallberds dating of ca. 1500, 1530, 1540 and Styrian, ca,. 1580 - all came from his former collection. I acquired them in order to get a few best possible quality contemporary decorative completements corresponding to my firearms and accouterments based collection.

As I have here stated more than once I do no claim any expertise on the field of edges weapons although never ceasing to point out both repeatedly and insistantly from the art historian's point of view that both are based on the same formal and decorative elements - along with all other contemporary arts and crafts alike of course - and are therefore essentially vital in judging all contemporary works of art correctly.

Considering the latter it should be kept in mind as a commonly accepted fact that architecture, paintings and sculpture used to be among the forerunners of a new style while ironworks and - after a considerably long interval - weapons usually were the latest products to adopt the new style and, in consequende, surrender to another afterwards ...

Best regards from Bavaria,
Michael

21st October 2009, 03:16 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting? Hi Michael, Do you mean the sword in my collection, it is not so light piece I would date it around 1560-1570, but this one is not so easy the shell shaped pommel with pierced holes appeared already at the end of the 15thC. the simple hilt form with ring guard and knuckle guard with disk shape terminals like this are seen around second quarter of the 16thC on-wards. the Counter guard with this type of "hook" and thumb guard can also be seen on many later 16thC swords (Fe Tussacks) and the same striped decoration can be found on a 1510 sword hilt published by Oakeshott in European A&A. best regards from Holland So what do you think Michael Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st October 2009 at 06:35 PM.

21st October 2009, 06:34 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, Ok, thank you herewith a sketch of the portrait by Dosso dossi of Alfonse d'este, duke of Ferrara C.1510(Brera gallery Milan). Please have a look at the Pommeltype and hilt decoration. the pommel is Norman type 12 and is commonly used between 1515-1535. the tumbring counter guard of the hilt I can not explain but think 1515-1535 is too early. best regards Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st October 2009 at 06:48 PM.

21st October 2009, 02:03 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Cornelis, I am much flattered (and a bit flattened as well ) to hear that Ewart Oakeshott interpreted the stylistic late Gothic and Early Renaissance developments quite the way I have come to do by experience that includes, besides weapons, all kinds of work of art. How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting? Best wishes, Michael

21st October 2009, 03:37 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More questions than replies, that's the way it's gotta be in schlolarly discussions ... The 1560's would, in my opinion, mark the upper limit for your item but let me ask a friend of mine who has specialized in this field amost all of his life. Be patient. Best regrads as always, Michael

22nd October 2009, 02:10 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, My friend thinks that your item is a Netherlandish sword (Haudegen) of about 1620, early Thirty Years' War. I can hardly really differentiate betwen those types, except that the riveted point on the pommel is much larger on later pieces. best, Michael

25th October 2009, 01:26 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelius, Thank you so much for your both well documented and balanced arguments. Still I beg to differ, my friend. I have known my friend's collection and lived to see his prevailing competence in more than two decades of both museum and auction sales room discussions. I also posted parts of his collection here a while ago. My humble number of three edged weapons - ca. 1510, 1520-5 and 1600-10 in my opinion - , plus four fine hallberds dating of ca. 1500, 1530, 1540 and Styrian, ca,. 1580 - all came from his former collection. I acquired them in order to get a few best possible quality contemporary decorative completements corresponding to my firearms and accouterments based collection. As I have here stated more than once I do no claim any expertise on the field of edges weapons although never ceasing to point out both repeatedly and insistantly from the art historian's point of view that both are based on the same formal and decorative elements - along with all other contemporary arts and crafts alike of course - and are therefore essentially vital in judging all contemporary works of art correctly. Considering the latter it should be kept in mind as a commonly accepted fact that architecture, paintings and sculpture used to be among the forerunners of a new style while ironworks and - after a considerably long interval - weapons usually were the latest products to adopt the new style and, in consequende, surrender to another afterwards ... Best regards from Bavaria, Michael