An Extremely Rare North Italian Arquebusier's Auxiliary Armament Saber, ca. 1510-15

Matchlock · 13th October 2009, 04:00 PM

Please see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10867

Samik · 16th October 2009, 11:48 PM

Nice piece Michael

As has broadaxe cleverly pointed out the hilt and more elaborate guard shows more central european origin than oriental / central asian.
Thus I would kindly disagree (if I may

) on terming the weapon a "sabre". It is true that such pieces are sometimes hard to label by precise definition and often fall into several categories , yet I would like to bring up one point.

The most prominent feature of a "sabre-proper" (for lack of a better term) seems to be its canted hilt (at the very end , usually accompanied by a small pommel) and , not so much the curved blade (overall it gives you a kind of a "S" profile ; mind you there are various breeds of single edged and curved bladed swords , messers and falchions that arent really a product of central asian influences).

For comparison look at the hilt on the original weapon posted by Michael/Matchlock and compare it with these:

sword of sultan mehmed :

Note the canted hilt at the end.. also the curvature on the blade isnt so much dramatic , but the overall "S" profile can be visible

To give some other examples of typical sabre hilts here is a
Classical Hungarian 17th century sabre (again the way how the hilt ends is interesting):

15th century "Schiavonesca" saber :

Note that despite having a sword-like hilt it is indeed canted at the end and again forms a sort of a overall S-profile.

A closeup on the messer that belonged to Kaiser Maximmilian I :

One can spot the "knife like" ending , with the grip being straight, which is different to that of central asian influenced sabres. Going further some messers actually have quite a curve on their blade (albeit without the yelmen , another "saberish" feature which is missing on Michaels piece). Of course there are examples that are a bit of "wild cards" and have both sabre as well as "genuine european messer" features ,but they seem to be quite rare.

For those aforementioned reasons I would somewhat hestiate calling it a sabre. Not here to spark any heated debate , but I am geninuely interested whats your take on the issue.

Regards,
Samuel

cornelistromp · 18th October 2009, 07:10 PM

Hello Samuel and Michael,

interesting discussion

the Sabre (Russian Sabla, polish szabla, Magyar's szablya) probably has been imported from the south of Russia to Europe also parallel there were obviously influences from the orient.(re;Attila's sword 850-950 Weltliche schatzkammer Vienna.)
the definition of the sabre is; a sidearm with a long curved blade and a asymmetric grip often bent towards the forward quillon, which has no pommel as a sword but can have a pommel cap instead. (Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen 1
p 183).

if we use this definition on Michaels sword/sabre, it is not a sabre because of it's straight grip and hilt.
Seitz also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group.
this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre

regards from Holland

Samik · 18th October 2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Seits also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group.
this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre

regards from Holland

Thank you very much for the clarification cornelistromp. Guess I have to settle for a sabre then

Cheers,
Samuel

ariel · 19th October 2009, 03:31 AM

Great saber, congratulations!
European weapons are not my area, but I have to dabble in them a little from time to time.
Thus, an amateurish question: would it be correct to make a connection between the "cat's head" pommel on your saber and Venetian schiavona?

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 05:37 PM

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 05:41 PM

Hi Cornelis and Samuel,

Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber.

Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy.

To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels.

Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice.
So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then?

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

I think it was most of all the relatively light workmanship (which is far from the solidity of a Katzbalger) and the missing of a pronounced yelman on the blade that convinced me that this was not an item of primary but rather of auxiliary armament, meaning that the main weapan for this landsknecht to rely on must have been an arquebus.

Please note the small swords resp. sabers of the arquebusiers in Ruprecht Heller's painting The Battle of Pavia, National Museum Stockholm (dated 1529, the battle took place in 1525) with their developed hilts! (s images attached). These hilts are very close to that on my saber while the pommels in this painting are what we would normally assign to the 1550's-60's!

Best,
Michael

13th October 2009, 04:00 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Early 16th century Italian trefoliate pommels Please see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10867

18th October 2009, 07:10 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hello Samuel and Michael, interesting discussion the Sabre (Russian Sabla, polish szabla, Magyar's szablya) probably has been imported from the south of Russia to Europe also parallel there were obviously influences from the orient.(re;Attila's sword 850-950 Weltliche schatzkammer Vienna.) the definition of the sabre is; a sidearm with a long curved blade and a asymmetric grip often bent towards the forward quillon, which has no pommel as a sword but can have a pommel cap instead. (Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen 1 p 183). if we use this definition on Michaels sword/sabre, it is not a sabre because of it's straight grip and hilt. Seitz also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group. this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre regards from Holland Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 19th October 2009 at 08:02 AM.

20th October 2009, 05:41 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis and Samuel, Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber. Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy. To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels. Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice. So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then? Best, Michael Attached Images

16th October 2009, 11:48 PM	#2
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Nice piece Michael As has broadaxe cleverly pointed out the hilt and more elaborate guard shows more central european origin than oriental / central asian. Thus I would kindly disagree (if I may ) on terming the weapon a "sabre". It is true that such pieces are sometimes hard to label by precise definition and often fall into several categories , yet I would like to bring up one point. The most prominent feature of a "sabre-proper" (for lack of a better term) seems to be its canted hilt (at the very end , usually accompanied by a small pommel) and , not so much the curved blade (overall it gives you a kind of a "S" profile ; mind you there are various breeds of single edged and curved bladed swords , messers and falchions that arent really a product of central asian influences). For comparison look at the hilt on the original weapon posted by Michael/Matchlock and compare it with these: sword of sultan mehmed : Note the canted hilt at the end.. also the curvature on the blade isnt so much dramatic , but the overall "S" profile can be visible To give some other examples of typical sabre hilts here is a Classical Hungarian 17th century sabre (again the way how the hilt ends is interesting): 15th century "Schiavonesca" saber : Note that despite having a sword-like hilt it is indeed canted at the end and again forms a sort of a overall S-profile. A closeup on the messer that belonged to Kaiser Maximmilian I : One can spot the "knife like" ending , with the grip being straight, which is different to that of central asian influenced sabres. Going further some messers actually have quite a curve on their blade (albeit without the yelmen , another "saberish" feature which is missing on Michaels piece). Of course there are examples that are a bit of "wild cards" and have both sabre as well as "genuine european messer" features ,but they seem to be quite rare. For those aforementioned reasons I would somewhat hestiate calling it a sabre. Not here to spark any heated debate , but I am geninuely interested whats your take on the issue. Regards, Samuel

19th October 2009, 03:31 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Great saber, congratulations! European weapons are not my area, but I have to dabble in them a little from time to time. Thus, an amateurish question: would it be correct to make a connection between the "cat's head" pommel on your saber and Venetian schiavona?

19th October 2009, 05:37 PM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hello, The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier? Thanks!