Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers

[erlikhan]

1st..2nd.. right, I mean the one he mentions as "from Turkey". . The handles are different ,correct. But I am 100 % sure both his one and the one I show are from the same Black sea region and same mentality. Check the fullers and proportions. I have seen both type handled and bladed samples. Just my assumption , is that flat, yataghan like handles can be older than the round ones,perhaps 19th c.,and then in 20th c., classical etnoghraphic weaponry decoration styles started to leave their place to easier types . The small one in my picture is more a tool, to cut something etc. , it could work good for something in that region where is dense woodland . As you say, his sample looks a bit more violent , perhaps closer to what I told about the early 20th c. usage of these knives. I attach 2 more samples, round and flat handled, both from the same region.
regards

[Justin]

Nice knives,they are definately related to mine but I cant help but think that we are dealing with :
A.One type of knife that has numerous variants.
B.Several knives that are similar and from the same region but are actually diffent knives.{I favor B}

Just a note on the tip of fullered Turkish dagger,the last 1/5in of the tip is NOT sharpened which I presumed was to help strengthen the tip for said thrusting purposes.


The last knife posted reminds me more of these guys:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002096.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002492.html

[tom hyle]

Yeah, it does, and all Ottoman/Turkic, of course. These multifullered jobbies seem to have been/be made with a definite "art dagger" side to them, and considerable variation is perhaps attendant to that concept (I'm not trying to say they're not for use, but that visual stunningness and individuality of design seems to be prized in the cutlery from this region; contributing to fanciness/desireability much as do precious materials for instance.).
Justin, I've commonly seen the effect you describe; a bevelled edge fading out into a flat unsharp edge with square corners at the tip. I have not seen it as consistent in any cultural setting, but it seems fairly common on E African spears and daggers, and I think I've seen it on Arab (per se) work, too, and from Europe (difinitely from Europe; the sentence structure got weird on me....). The idea does seem to be to prevent crumpling/"fish-hooking" of the bevel at the tip.
Who wants to talk about the "stall" or "pad" for the pinky finger? Seems a Tartaric feature. Seems to relate to the subhilt/stall/pad for the first one or two fingers also seen on some modern Turkish etc. work, and those to similar features on ancient steppes swords.
Though not usually set off by a grooved line, the narrowing of a tulwar hilt at the top before the pommel may also be related; it provides a similar gripping place for the small finger.
Erlikhan, I want to disagree with you more, just so you'll keep showing me nice pictures Lots of variety in this region, but the experts and the books have always created an impression/atmosphere of homogeneity that does not seem to be borne out by facts on the ground, pretty well all around the cutlery world.

[Conogre]

Keeping secrets from me, eh, Justin?
Here's another of the "Surmene" daggers/knives, this one a little guy at 8" long with a 4" blade and pink dyed ivory hilt scales, and even with its diminuative size has a clearly defined hardened edge and an extremely long wicked point that makes it "feel" more lethal than a cursory glance would indicate, and now that you mention it, I can see the definite resemblence to a yatagan in the end of the hilt.
It also, of course, works extremely well as a "steak knife of the world"!
I got this one and a Yatagan both from a gentleman in Izmir who had related the information to me about the knives being peculiar to the region but have never seen it verified elsewhere until now...thank you.
Like Justin, I also have to second the motion and hope that you've overlooked a Black Sea yatagan or two, as that's #1 on my "quest list".
I have to admit to being somewhat surprised to find that both styles are from Turkey....now I REALLY have to dig and find my copy of Levine's....thanks a lot, Ian, as sometimes it's harder to find things here than it is on the internet!
Mike

[erlikhan]

Well Tom, what you want is easy. I can post as many Surmene pictures as many you wish, as they are plenty here in market and offered continuously on internet. Seller says this one is 41 cms. A big one with some silver inlay. Perhaps I must pay more attention to them and collect some while they are still not expensive?? .
I just think, both the pinky finger pad and the unsharp edged tip are to support and strengthen the thrusts. By "Tartaric",you mean Crimean Tartars or Middle Ajia? On which samples does the pad exist? Or both?
regards

[Justin]

erlikhan:Thanks for posting all the examples for comparison.This last one with the ears seems to have an almost identical sheath to mine.

So the first one is a Surmene.What do I call the other one,Im surprised that theres been few comments on it,I know I have seen these around before.

[Mark]

That is one cool-looking knife, erlikhan!