TULWAR now cleaned up....with a few surprises.

katana · 26th September 2009, 07:07 PM

Interesting Tulwar, was heavily rusted and in very poor condition.

The blade is rivetted through the Langets and was done a long time ago. The tang is just visible entering the hilt but most of the resin has long gone.

I originally thought the blade to be European (before removing rust), but now I have no ideas.
It was quite exciting to discover the 'sun' (?) inlays not ...certain whether brass (probably)..or gold. The blade then revealed the strange marking (picture).....does anyone recognise it ? As more rust was carefully removed ....a swirly pattern, mostly visible at the tip end...became apparent. A pattern welded blade ? Is it Indian ?

The hilt is silver plated ....which has suffered badly and is/has come away from large areas of it.

The blade has a single broad fuller either side and I would not be surprised if it is 18th C ...or earlier.

Please, any comments or info would.....as usual, be gratefully received, thank you

Regards David

katana · 27th September 2009, 07:15 PM

Bump !!!

please .....no one any ideas or comments at all ?

kisak · 28th September 2009, 02:41 AM

The blade and hilt don't seem to match each other very well, so perhaps some form of emergency construction/repair?

The pattern in the steel might perhaps be from folding? Or at leasts some form of extensive hot working with similar purpose.

katana · 29th September 2009, 12:21 PM

Hi Kisak

,
thank you for replying. Having the sword 'in hand' it feels nicely balanced. I believe that the rivetting was done to re-inforce the 'fixing' of the blade, not, as I had originally thought, as a repair /emergency construction. (as you have pointed out). The patina on the blade around the langet area suggests that the hilt and blade have been together for a very long time.

The tang of the blade was also 'fixed' with resin....much of which has , through age, has 'dried out' and crumbled.

I get the impression that the blade was 'valued' by its owner. The hilt has/had a thick layer of silver ( the deep scoring on the exposed sections of the hilt is original, probably to provide a 'key' to help secure the silver ....and is not due to my 'excessive cleaning'

) The hilt is also larger than the normal Tulwar....It comfortably fits my hand

.

I wondered whether this was a 'captured' blade and was hoping the 'square' shaped stamp (in the picture) would provide clues as to its origins. The inlays may have been added afterwards, but I am not certain.

All the best
David

colin henshaw · 29th September 2009, 01:21 PM

Hi David

Interesting - not my subject really, only to say that, as already stated by Kisak, the blade and the hilt do not seem made for each other. Maybe the original blade got broken somehow and this blade was available as a replacement ?

I once had a katar with similar silver overlay, which was also coming away as I recall.

Regards
Colin

Norman McCormick · 29th September 2009, 07:52 PM

Hi David,
Can't add anything academically just an observation. The blade looks like it has been sharpened, more than once, in the same manner as the Tulwars I have or have handled. The riveting of blades is quite common on some types of Indian blades and I can see this option being used if the resin used normally was unavailable when the blade/hilt combination failed. If there is not a lot of resin left perhaps you could try and ascertain how long the tang is as Indian blades, in my experience, have very short tangs in comparison to European blades. Interesting piece.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Do you think the pommel ring is original to the sword?

katana · 1st October 2009, 02:28 PM

Hi Colin and Norman

,
thank you for your comments. It is difficult to see the extent of how deep the tang is situated in the hilt. I totally agree that the blade and hilt were not 'made' for each other....but functionally they 'work' ...the balance and the 'larger' sized hilt ensure that this was a 'good' sword.

As I said before I thought the blade was possibly European ....and perhaps therefore 'rat tailed'. (such a thin tang would not be fully secured by the resin and would require the extra fixing via the rivets).

I can only say with certainty that this 'marriage' occured a long time ago and is therefore not a recent 'botch up' for resale. This Tulwar came as a group of three weapons that have been 'partners' for a very long time. Each of them in equally poor condition. Another Tulwar and a British Yatagan sword bayonet a M1853 bayonet where the others in the group. Because of the date of the bayonet I wondered if these 3 were 'bring backs' from the Sepoy Revolt 1857.

The other Tulwar heavily rusted and with a thick layer of dark stabilised oxidation seems, likely to be old , 18th C ? The pommel is missing either due to rust or damage.

Norman, I cannot tell whether the pommel ring is original ....but I can say is it is quite old.....it was very heavily oxidised and only after a lot of cleaning , did I realised it was silver !!

All the best
David

.

Norman McCormick · 1st October 2009, 07:00 PM

Hi David,
Rusty hilt of sword no2 reminds me of this one I have.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Do you think the pommel ring is solid silver or plated steel?

katana · 1st October 2009, 07:56 PM

Hi Norman,
very similar styled hilts indeed

.

As to the 'ring', with so much oxidisation I would have thought there would be have been 'show through' of the underlying metal, as the plate lifted. I would say it is solid silver....seems a uniform colour even within the deeper scratches... with no rust staining.

Whether the design of the ring is typical or not, I cannot comment.

Regards David

26th September 2009, 07:07 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	TULWAR now cleaned up....with a few surprises. Interesting Tulwar, was heavily rusted and in very poor condition. The blade is rivetted through the Langets and was done a long time ago. The tang is just visible entering the hilt but most of the resin has long gone. I originally thought the blade to be European (before removing rust), but now I have no ideas. It was quite exciting to discover the 'sun' (?) inlays not ...certain whether brass (probably)..or gold. The blade then revealed the strange marking (picture).....does anyone recognise it ? As more rust was carefully removed ....a swirly pattern, mostly visible at the tip end...became apparent. A pattern welded blade ? Is it Indian ? The hilt is silver plated ....which has suffered badly and is/has come away from large areas of it. The blade has a single broad fuller either side and I would not be surprised if it is 18th C ...or earlier. Please, any comments or info would.....as usual, be gratefully received, thank you Regards David Attached Images

1st October 2009, 02:28 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Colin and Norman , thank you for your comments. It is difficult to see the extent of how deep the tang is situated in the hilt. I totally agree that the blade and hilt were not 'made' for each other....but functionally they 'work' ...the balance and the 'larger' sized hilt ensure that this was a 'good' sword. As I said before I thought the blade was possibly European ....and perhaps therefore 'rat tailed'. (such a thin tang would not be fully secured by the resin and would require the extra fixing via the rivets). I can only say with certainty that this 'marriage' occured a long time ago and is therefore not a recent 'botch up' for resale. This Tulwar came as a group of three weapons that have been 'partners' for a very long time. Each of them in equally poor condition. Another Tulwar and a British Yatagan sword bayonet a M1853 bayonet where the others in the group. Because of the date of the bayonet I wondered if these 3 were 'bring backs' from the Sepoy Revolt 1857. The other Tulwar heavily rusted and with a thick layer of dark stabilised oxidation seems, likely to be old , 18th C ? The pommel is missing either due to rust or damage. Norman, I cannot tell whether the pommel ring is original ....but I can say is it is quite old.....it was very heavily oxidised and only after a lot of cleaning , did I realised it was silver !! All the best David . Attached Images

1st October 2009, 07:00 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi David, Rusty hilt of sword no2 reminds me of this one I have. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Do you think the pommel ring is solid silver or plated steel? Attached Images

27th September 2009, 07:15 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Bump !!! please .....no one any ideas or comments at all ?

28th September 2009, 02:41 AM	#3
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	The blade and hilt don't seem to match each other very well, so perhaps some form of emergency construction/repair? The pattern in the steel might perhaps be from folding? Or at leasts some form of extensive hot working with similar purpose.

29th September 2009, 12:21 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Kisak , thank you for replying. Having the sword 'in hand' it feels nicely balanced. I believe that the rivetting was done to re-inforce the 'fixing' of the blade, not, as I had originally thought, as a repair /emergency construction. (as you have pointed out). The patina on the blade around the langet area suggests that the hilt and blade have been together for a very long time. The tang of the blade was also 'fixed' with resin....much of which has , through age, has 'dried out' and crumbled. I get the impression that the blade was 'valued' by its owner. The hilt has/had a thick layer of silver ( the deep scoring on the exposed sections of the hilt is original, probably to provide a 'key' to help secure the silver ....and is not due to my 'excessive cleaning' ) The hilt is also larger than the normal Tulwar....It comfortably fits my hand . I wondered whether this was a 'captured' blade and was hoping the 'square' shaped stamp (in the picture) would provide clues as to its origins. The inlays may have been added afterwards, but I am not certain. All the best David

29th September 2009, 01:21 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David Interesting - not my subject really, only to say that, as already stated by Kisak, the blade and the hilt do not seem made for each other. Maybe the original blade got broken somehow and this blade was available as a replacement ? I once had a katar with similar silver overlay, which was also coming away as I recall. Regards Colin

29th September 2009, 07:52 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi David, Can't add anything academically just an observation. The blade looks like it has been sharpened, more than once, in the same manner as the Tulwars I have or have handled. The riveting of blades is quite common on some types of Indian blades and I can see this option being used if the resin used normally was unavailable when the blade/hilt combination failed. If there is not a lot of resin left perhaps you could try and ascertain how long the tang is as Indian blades, in my experience, have very short tangs in comparison to European blades. Interesting piece. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Do you think the pommel ring is original to the sword?

1st October 2009, 07:56 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Norman, very similar styled hilts indeed . As to the 'ring', with so much oxidisation I would have thought there would be have been 'show through' of the underlying metal, as the plate lifted. I would say it is solid silver....seems a uniform colour even within the deeper scratches... with no rust staining. Whether the design of the ring is typical or not, I cannot comment. Regards David