Question about barrel stamping

Matchlock · 22nd September 2009, 04:44 PM

Welcome, Dave!

As you rightly remarked, photos are the most important thing. Please do not expect all of us to have supernatural gifts or be omniscient.

Good and detailed images would be an indispensable prerequisite for any substantial comment on 'your' gun in question.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2009, 02:41 AM

Hello Fahnenschmeid, and I'd like to welcome you to the forum! I'm really glad to see your question, a topic that I seem to have been pretty well immersed in of late. The recent topic on Mormon guns (the Nauvoo Legion) has actually led into a great deal of focus on these kinds of guns.
These guns were well known throughout the midwest regions which were in those days the wild west of this young country, and there were many gunsmiths from primarily Germany and other European countries who plied thier craft in developing populations here.

The term 'long rifle' seems to have been almost indiscriminately applied to flintlock rifles sold and used from Pennsylvania to Kentucky and Missouri.
I'll check some references here, but some photos would really help, especially of that marking. Sounds like an intriguing gun!

Thank you for posting here!!! Very much appreciated.

All the best,
Jim

fahnenschmied · 23rd September 2009, 03:56 AM

Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc.
I just thought it might be worth a try without photos, as there are many marks I can guess at from a description.
"Long rifles" are not of my concern at the moment, aside from the fact they are rather over represented here....by far the predomiant arm in this state - North Carolina - was smoothbore and of English or European manufacture.

Had the rear octagonal section of this barrel been shorter, I might have thought it was a reworked French trade gun, as the guard finial reminded me
of such shaping. Had there been lines on either side of the guard bow, I'd have thought Dutch. But perhaps that detail got removed in its rebuilding...

If I can get permission I'll make some photos...

celtan · 23rd September 2009, 01:31 PM

: )

Been there, I can conmiserate. I have even seen tourist-market toys "preserved" within humidity/temperature regulated enclosures, expensive displays, you know. Cheap modern replicas cared for as 18th C. Brown Besses. Rare artillery pieces left to rot. Galvanism corroding touching blades of different metallic compostion. Flintlocks and Percussion Locks displayed with their hammers in either Ready or Safe positions. Red rust on ancient blades...

The reaction of the "curators" after being informed? None. That would be like admitting they committed a gaffe. Nothing changes.

And they all limit access to their caches, as if they actually belonged to them, instead of being sources of knowledge meant to be shared.

Nuff'sed

Send pics, if you can!

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by fahnenschmied

Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc.

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2009, 01:57 AM

While awaiting photos, if possible, especially of the marking, I thought I would just add a few notes. Though certainly outside my usual fields of study, as I have noted, Americana has become increasingly interesting as I travel into these historical regions. I just left Utah heading into Idaho toward Washington, Lewis & Clark regions.

Apparantly by the 1820's and 30's, a number of Pennsylvania makers were making 'short' barrel flintlocks, such as B.D.Gill of Lancaster; John Krider of Philadephia and S.Shuler of Liverpool. I think that the English fowling guns that served as prototypes for the fowling guns in America had very long barrels, but few, if any were produced in America until after the Revolutionary War. One of the earliest producers noted was Thomas Palmer of Pennsylvania.
While fowling guns were typically of smaller caliber, it seems they were part round and part octagonal in the barrel if I understand correctly. The 'long rifles' such as the famed Hawken were of much larger calibers.

I understand also that until the mid 19th century, flintlock smoothbores were preferred in many cases due to simplicity in procuring powder and material for ammunition vs,. difficulty in same acquiring caps or cartridges for the newr cap and ball guns.

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2009, 04:39 AM

Dave, in continuing to try to help with the marking, I realize in rereading your posts you already have obviously well established knowledge on these guns, so please accept my suggestions as just that. I have very limited resources here with me, especially on guns, but I always enjoy a challenge, especially if I can learn from it !

You say the marking is a man holding a spear. There were armourers in Germany in the 17th century that used standing figures holding indiscernable weapons, one was Hoppe (Hoppie) of Solingen c.1630; the other Horman Michael of Munich c.1670. While these are shown as 'swordsmiths' ("Armourers Marks" Gyngell, 1959, p.39) I am thinking that perhaps the image might have been copied by a gun or barrel maker in Pennsylvania in latter 17th into the 18th century. It is well known that the Pennsylvania 'Duetsch' (not Dutch) establishing gunmaking as early as c.1719. The well known Jaeger rifles were progenitors of the 'Kentucky' and Pennsylvania long rifles.

I have found a number of references that may discuss more on possibly determining more of the form of this rifle, but as you note you are more focused on the marking. Most of the references I have seen that reference these obscure markings on the trade items and various weaponry in America in colonial times seem to pay more attention to tomahawks and axes, but there must be others that address the guns..still looking.

Manolo, extremely well said observations!!!! I agree many museums are sad indeed in the way they deny proper care to important pieces of history, and fail to share them with those who seek preserving history, regardless of bureaucratic budgets and ajendas.

All best regards,
Jim

fahnenschmied · 24th September 2009, 02:09 PM

[QUOTE=I have found a number of references that may discuss more on possibly determining more of the form of this rifle, but as you note you are more focused on the marking.

....Thats just my point I am trying to get across to my museum - it is not a rifle at all, never was, only a gun restocked at a later time with an American rifle style stock without a patchbox. I was interested in barrel markings because that is my best clue as to what it might have been.
Most English barrels I've ever messed with from the time have some sort of view and proof marks. What I'm really looking for at the moment is a list or chart with 18th century proofmarks, or barrel marks, from France, Holland, Belgium, Spain and elsewhere in Europe. Its not a Suhl chicken, thats for sure!
I am almost certain that the barrel isn't American made. The only Pennsylvania barrel marks I know in imitation of others are the marks on some Leman made guns in imitation of Birmingham ones on some guns made for the Indian trade.

Yes, sometimes I see things that make me wonder....artillery and vehicles slowly rotting outside in the rain....bows left strung...locks with the cock fully back...things drastically mislabeled. Once as a lowly college student I saw a nice old german wheellock rifle on display at our state museum, but the spring bridle had been put on the wrong way. I tried to tell the curators about it but I'm not sure they tell which gun I was talking about, or what a wheel lock was...

Dave

22nd September 2009, 04:44 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Welcome, Dave! As you rightly remarked, photos are the most important thing. Please do not expect all of us to have supernatural gifts or be omniscient. Good and detailed images would be an indispensable prerequisite for any substantial comment on 'your' gun in question. Best, Michael

23rd September 2009, 02:41 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,469	Hello Fahnenschmeid, and I'd like to welcome you to the forum! I'm really glad to see your question, a topic that I seem to have been pretty well immersed in of late. The recent topic on Mormon guns (the Nauvoo Legion) has actually led into a great deal of focus on these kinds of guns. These guns were well known throughout the midwest regions which were in those days the wild west of this young country, and there were many gunsmiths from primarily Germany and other European countries who plied thier craft in developing populations here. The term 'long rifle' seems to have been almost indiscriminately applied to flintlock rifles sold and used from Pennsylvania to Kentucky and Missouri. I'll check some references here, but some photos would really help, especially of that marking. Sounds like an intriguing gun! Thank you for posting here!!! Very much appreciated. All the best, Jim

23rd September 2009, 03:56 AM	#3
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc. I just thought it might be worth a try without photos, as there are many marks I can guess at from a description. "Long rifles" are not of my concern at the moment, aside from the fact they are rather over represented here....by far the predomiant arm in this state - North Carolina - was smoothbore and of English or European manufacture. Had the rear octagonal section of this barrel been shorter, I might have thought it was a reworked French trade gun, as the guard finial reminded me of such shaping. Had there been lines on either side of the guard bow, I'd have thought Dutch. But perhaps that detail got removed in its rebuilding... If I can get permission I'll make some photos...

24th September 2009, 01:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,469	While awaiting photos, if possible, especially of the marking, I thought I would just add a few notes. Though certainly outside my usual fields of study, as I have noted, Americana has become increasingly interesting as I travel into these historical regions. I just left Utah heading into Idaho toward Washington, Lewis & Clark regions. Apparantly by the 1820's and 30's, a number of Pennsylvania makers were making 'short' barrel flintlocks, such as B.D.Gill of Lancaster; John Krider of Philadephia and S.Shuler of Liverpool. I think that the English fowling guns that served as prototypes for the fowling guns in America had very long barrels, but few, if any were produced in America until after the Revolutionary War. One of the earliest producers noted was Thomas Palmer of Pennsylvania. While fowling guns were typically of smaller caliber, it seems they were part round and part octagonal in the barrel if I understand correctly. The 'long rifles' such as the famed Hawken were of much larger calibers. I understand also that until the mid 19th century, flintlock smoothbores were preferred in many cases due to simplicity in procuring powder and material for ammunition vs,. difficulty in same acquiring caps or cartridges for the newr cap and ball guns.

24th September 2009, 04:39 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,469	Dave, in continuing to try to help with the marking, I realize in rereading your posts you already have obviously well established knowledge on these guns, so please accept my suggestions as just that. I have very limited resources here with me, especially on guns, but I always enjoy a challenge, especially if I can learn from it ! You say the marking is a man holding a spear. There were armourers in Germany in the 17th century that used standing figures holding indiscernable weapons, one was Hoppe (Hoppie) of Solingen c.1630; the other Horman Michael of Munich c.1670. While these are shown as 'swordsmiths' ("Armourers Marks" Gyngell, 1959, p.39) I am thinking that perhaps the image might have been copied by a gun or barrel maker in Pennsylvania in latter 17th into the 18th century. It is well known that the Pennsylvania 'Duetsch' (not Dutch) establishing gunmaking as early as c.1719. The well known Jaeger rifles were progenitors of the 'Kentucky' and Pennsylvania long rifles. I have found a number of references that may discuss more on possibly determining more of the form of this rifle, but as you note you are more focused on the marking. Most of the references I have seen that reference these obscure markings on the trade items and various weaponry in America in colonial times seem to pay more attention to tomahawks and axes, but there must be others that address the guns..still looking. Manolo, extremely well said observations!!!! I agree many museums are sad indeed in the way they deny proper care to important pieces of history, and fail to share them with those who seek preserving history, regardless of bureaucratic budgets and ajendas. All best regards, Jim

24th September 2009, 02:09 PM	#7
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	[QUOTE=I have found a number of references that may discuss more on possibly determining more of the form of this rifle, but as you note you are more focused on the marking. ....Thats just my point I am trying to get across to my museum - it is not a rifle at all, never was, only a gun restocked at a later time with an American rifle style stock without a patchbox. I was interested in barrel markings because that is my best clue as to what it might have been. Most English barrels I've ever messed with from the time have some sort of view and proof marks. What I'm really looking for at the moment is a list or chart with 18th century proofmarks, or barrel marks, from France, Holland, Belgium, Spain and elsewhere in Europe. Its not a Suhl chicken, thats for sure! I am almost certain that the barrel isn't American made. The only Pennsylvania barrel marks I know in imitation of others are the marks on some Leman made guns in imitation of Birmingham ones on some guns made for the Indian trade. Yes, sometimes I see things that make me wonder....artillery and vehicles slowly rotting outside in the rain....bows left strung...locks with the cock fully back...things drastically mislabeled. Once as a lowly college student I saw a nice old german wheellock rifle on display at our state museum, but the spring bridle had been put on the wrong way. I tried to tell the curators about it but I'm not sure they tell which gun I was talking about, or what a wheel lock was... Dave