European sword from XVII or XVIII c. - <?>

buendia · 18th September 2009, 11:50 AM

I have found a picture of makers` marks, but no idea where from?

The 3 dots on each side of the crescent from my blade are "borrowed" from
the marks on this picture!
Maybe another symbolic mixture theory?
So what`s the name for the marks?

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2009, 06:54 PM

I very much like the way you are thinking Buendia! You take a systematic approach to examining not just the marking, but the style and elements of the sword overall.

As noted, these swords with the thumbrings seem to have been mostly of 17th century, and used from Austria to North Europe and the Low Countries. It must be remembered that these times and regions were of course in a constant state of geopolitical flux, and warfare and trade throughout were a continually present dynamic.

Also, it is important to note that Solingen was a powerful industrial and merchandising machine in the production of sword blades, who duplicated the blades of many other centers. It would have been fruitless for any other center to try to duplicate a 'Solingen' blade, as Solingen blades were actually so often designed to impersonate blades of other countries.

Probably the most likely explanation for this marking, which is as you have noticed, is that it is actually a composite marking, probably applied to the blade after its production. As previously mentioned, it cannot be associated with a certain maker or city as it is an interpretation of known symbols or devices used either in amuletic or imbued quality sense.

The arch with triple dots at either end is of course from the 'Genoan' or 'sickle' mark usually occurring in opposed pair with dentated semi circle.
Its use in variation became known later as it was copied by many trade centers and blade makers even in native colonial areas.

The cross, again as you have well noted, describing the cross and orb, which was indeed used by a number of European swordsmiths, particularly in Solingen, was most likely used in talismanic sense. The cross is very much present in similar configuration occasionally with other amuletic devices as an invocation calling for divine protection and strength.

These were times of profound religious piety as well as of deep superstition and folklore, so the application of these symbols would seem well in place
applied to a mans sword, with which he defended his faith, his honor and his very life.

Your very astute interpretation of St. Peters cross is also quite plausible and well considered in this context.

All best regards,
Jim

buendia · 30th September 2009, 11:50 PM

Thank you very much for your extreme help and kind words.
Sorry also for my long absence - I have had house remodelling and quite substantial computer break down at the same time.
I have seen many Genoan marks on Eastern swords, but also for example on many swords in Graz Armory in Austria. You won`t believe me how much I would like to know the original interpretations of these "eyelashes" in such a Sudan or Afghanistan... I `m quite sure it could be many fascinating and totally different stories! Maybe their original meaning has changed with time into something totally new?
Was it at the beginning the same case as with famous Toledo swordmaker families (SAHAGU/VM or ANDREA FER/RRARA)?
- "The signature SAHAGVN on the blade has been observed in various spellings on many other Walloon swords and the Visser collection alone provides three different examples (cf. Cat. 549, HV- 693, - 696 and - 698). These various spellings can be regarded as misspellings, either intentional or not, of Sahagun, the name of a famous Toledo dynasty of sword-smiths, operating during the 16th and 17th C (cf. Mann, and Norman)".

Text from Wikipedia - "Andrew Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. The name is supposed to be derived from the name of the manufacturer, according to some, Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[1]

According to some, Andrea Ferrara is a generic name, commonly labelled and found on numerous lade-mediaeval and Renaissance swords throughout Europe. In keeping with the same, it is held that the name was essentially a mark of quality, for Ferrara means 'farrier' or 'blacksmith', in Italian and Italian swords were prized for their high quality leading to the Andrea Ferrara stamp giving them an air of quality.[citation needed]

Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.[2]

Generally mounted in a basket-hilt or in that of a claymore, Andrew Ferrara blades were prized possessions, being passed down the generations as heirlooms.

References to them are fairly common in Scottish literature of the 17th to the early 19th centuries.

[edit] References
^ "Chambers 20th Century Dictionary", W. & R. Chambers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1983
^ "The Foreign Quarterly Review - Volume 26", Treuttel and Würtz, 1841
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ferrara"
"
- quite a long citation, but very interesting reading. From my observations I can confirm a numerous presence of Sahagvum and Andrea Ferara blades in Graz Armory.

So a European could be proud when he was wearing ANDREA FERARA on his sword even though it was written incorrectly 3 times on each of the sides of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2009, 04:20 AM

Welcome back Buendia!! Excellent observations and comments on these trade markings and names, a subject that has been keenly discussed around here often through the years, and you clearly have a sound understanding on the topic.

The 'eyelashes' or more commonly known as 'sickle' markings, are indeed well known in native environments, the result of profound importations of trade blades and in some cases captured blades. The original use of these markings began in European blademaking centers, generally held to have been in Northern Italy, but were soon copied by other makers as a suggestion of quality. It is believed that the original application may have been associated with local guilds, but the deeper symbolism from which derived is a matter of much more research.

The meanings of these markings as used by native bladesmiths in the Caucusus (the term 'gurda' describing the blades they appear on); and presumably in Afghanistan (on paluoar blades); the Sudan (on some kaskara blades) and wherever else they were used simply suggested quality or power.

The Andrea Ferara term as noted probably does derive in some degree from the allusions to the famed Belluno smith, but his actual existence remains questionable, and the name seems more likely a term, Andrea (Andrew= faithful, trusty, sound

, and Ferara= iron). Whatever the case, the Solingen smiths used the marking in particular for the Grosse Schotten (Scottish blades). They are known on a number of English and others as well, but most were on Scottish baskethilts.

Sahagun, is as you note, another Solingen 'brand' and seems to occur more on Continental swords, some suggestions more to the low countries, and does recall the famed Spanish swordmakers, along with several other names, marks and inscriptions. As noted the blades in Graz certainly would have used much the same markings in cases.

The meanings and origins of these blade markings has been a fascination of mine as well for many years, and our thread on early makers trademarks carries many great entries from the members here in discussions on them. I hope it will continue, and ever be an increasing cache of information for collectors and researchers as it is added to and viewed.

Great to have you back Buendia!!! and thank you for 'recharging the batteries 'on this great topic!!!

All best regards,
Jim

18th September 2009, 11:50 AM	#1
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	I have found a picture of makers` marks, but no idea where from? The 3 dots on each side of the crescent from my blade are "borrowed" from the marks on this picture! Maybe another symbolic mixture theory? So what`s the name for the marks?

19th September 2009, 06:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I very much like the way you are thinking Buendia! You take a systematic approach to examining not just the marking, but the style and elements of the sword overall. As noted, these swords with the thumbrings seem to have been mostly of 17th century, and used from Austria to North Europe and the Low Countries. It must be remembered that these times and regions were of course in a constant state of geopolitical flux, and warfare and trade throughout were a continually present dynamic. Also, it is important to note that Solingen was a powerful industrial and merchandising machine in the production of sword blades, who duplicated the blades of many other centers. It would have been fruitless for any other center to try to duplicate a 'Solingen' blade, as Solingen blades were actually so often designed to impersonate blades of other countries. Probably the most likely explanation for this marking, which is as you have noticed, is that it is actually a composite marking, probably applied to the blade after its production. As previously mentioned, it cannot be associated with a certain maker or city as it is an interpretation of known symbols or devices used either in amuletic or imbued quality sense. The arch with triple dots at either end is of course from the 'Genoan' or 'sickle' mark usually occurring in opposed pair with dentated semi circle. Its use in variation became known later as it was copied by many trade centers and blade makers even in native colonial areas. The cross, again as you have well noted, describing the cross and orb, which was indeed used by a number of European swordsmiths, particularly in Solingen, was most likely used in talismanic sense. The cross is very much present in similar configuration occasionally with other amuletic devices as an invocation calling for divine protection and strength. These were times of profound religious piety as well as of deep superstition and folklore, so the application of these symbols would seem well in place applied to a mans sword, with which he defended his faith, his honor and his very life. Your very astute interpretation of St. Peters cross is also quite plausible and well considered in this context. All best regards, Jim

30th September 2009, 11:50 PM	#3
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Thank you very much for your extreme help and kind words. Sorry also for my long absence - I have had house remodelling and quite substantial computer break down at the same time. I have seen many Genoan marks on Eastern swords, but also for example on many swords in Graz Armory in Austria. You won`t believe me how much I would like to know the original interpretations of these "eyelashes" in such a Sudan or Afghanistan... I `m quite sure it could be many fascinating and totally different stories! Maybe their original meaning has changed with time into something totally new? Was it at the beginning the same case as with famous Toledo swordmaker families (SAHAGU/VM or ANDREA FER/RRARA)? - "The signature SAHAGVN on the blade has been observed in various spellings on many other Walloon swords and the Visser collection alone provides three different examples (cf. Cat. 549, HV- 693, - 696 and - 698). These various spellings can be regarded as misspellings, either intentional or not, of Sahagun, the name of a famous Toledo dynasty of sword-smiths, operating during the 16th and 17th C (cf. Mann, and Norman)". Text from Wikipedia - "Andrew Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. The name is supposed to be derived from the name of the manufacturer, according to some, Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[1] According to some, Andrea Ferrara is a generic name, commonly labelled and found on numerous lade-mediaeval and Renaissance swords throughout Europe. In keeping with the same, it is held that the name was essentially a mark of quality, for Ferrara means 'farrier' or 'blacksmith', in Italian and Italian swords were prized for their high quality leading to the Andrea Ferrara stamp giving them an air of quality.[citation needed] Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.[2] Generally mounted in a basket-hilt or in that of a claymore, Andrew Ferrara blades were prized possessions, being passed down the generations as heirlooms. References to them are fairly common in Scottish literature of the 17th to the early 19th centuries. [edit] References ^ "Chambers 20th Century Dictionary", W. & R. Chambers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1983 ^ "The Foreign Quarterly Review - Volume 26", Treuttel and Würtz, 1841 Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ferrara" " - quite a long citation, but very interesting reading. From my observations I can confirm a numerous presence of Sahagvum and Andrea Ferara blades in Graz Armory. So a European could be proud when he was wearing ANDREA FERARA on his sword even though it was written incorrectly 3 times on each of the sides of the blade.

1st October 2009, 04:20 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Welcome back Buendia!! Excellent observations and comments on these trade markings and names, a subject that has been keenly discussed around here often through the years, and you clearly have a sound understanding on the topic. The 'eyelashes' or more commonly known as 'sickle' markings, are indeed well known in native environments, the result of profound importations of trade blades and in some cases captured blades. The original use of these markings began in European blademaking centers, generally held to have been in Northern Italy, but were soon copied by other makers as a suggestion of quality. It is believed that the original application may have been associated with local guilds, but the deeper symbolism from which derived is a matter of much more research. The meanings of these markings as used by native bladesmiths in the Caucusus (the term 'gurda' describing the blades they appear on); and presumably in Afghanistan (on paluoar blades); the Sudan (on some kaskara blades) and wherever else they were used simply suggested quality or power. The Andrea Ferara term as noted probably does derive in some degree from the allusions to the famed Belluno smith, but his actual existence remains questionable, and the name seems more likely a term, Andrea (Andrew= faithful, trusty, sound , and Ferara= iron). Whatever the case, the Solingen smiths used the marking in particular for the Grosse Schotten (Scottish blades). They are known on a number of English and others as well, but most were on Scottish baskethilts. Sahagun, is as you note, another Solingen 'brand' and seems to occur more on Continental swords, some suggestions more to the low countries, and does recall the famed Spanish swordmakers, along with several other names, marks and inscriptions. As noted the blades in Graz certainly would have used much the same markings in cases. The meanings and origins of these blade markings has been a fascination of mine as well for many years, and our thread on early makers trademarks carries many great entries from the members here in discussions on them. I hope it will continue, and ever be an increasing cache of information for collectors and researchers as it is added to and viewed. Great to have you back Buendia!!! and thank you for 'recharging the batteries 'on this great topic!!! All best regards, Jim